Interview with George Wambura Gehamba and Samweli Muya Mongita in Morotonga

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Photograph of George Wambura Gehamba and Samweli Muya Mongita
Photograph of George Wambura Gehamba and Samweli Muya Mongita
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Title

Interview with George Wambura Gehamba and Samweli Muya Mongita in Morotonga

Creator

George Wambura Gehamba, Samweli Muya Mongita

Contributor

Nyamusi Magatti (transcriber), Paul Shetler (videographer)

Description

In this interview, George Wambura Gehamba and Samweli Muya Mongita address various topics related to livelihoods and government. They discuss migrant labor, famine, army and police work, and chiefs. They also talk about cassava, famine, settlement sites, Maasai, and Abaasi. The interview ends with significant discussion of the Serengeti National Park and issues surrounding it, as well as farming processes.

Language
Ikoma
Swahili
Ethnicity
Ikoma
Sex

Male

Date Original

21 August 2003

City

Morotonga

District
Serengeti
Region
Mara
Country

Tanzania

Theme
Democracy and Diversity
Environment and Climate Change
Subject
Famine
Leaders
Livelihoods
Migration
Neighbors
Territory
Original Format
Interview
Digital Format

video/mp4

Source

Jan Bender Shetler Collection, Goshen College

Publisher

Goshen College

Rights Management

Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International (CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)

Contributing Institution

Jan Bender Shetler; Goshen College; Matrix: Center for Digital Humanities and Social Sciences at Michigan State University

Biography

George Wambura Gehamba was born in 1937 in Ikoma Mabokochabi, south of Robanda. Saro in 1955, Mchapani. In 1957, when he was 25 years old, he went to get work in Mwanza. His first job was as a shamba boy taking care of a white person's garden (the DC of Mwanza, Francis Petro. Wife was Barbara). In 1959, Petro went on home leave, so he went back to Robanda while he was gone. Petro got a transfer to Dar es Salaam, so George Wambura Gehamba went to Dar es Salaam and continued working for Petro. In 1964, George Wambura Gehamba left to join the army, motivated by Nyerere's call for Tanzanians to do so. He first served in the National Service before going to the army. From 1964 to 1968, he was stationed in the south; he went back to Dar es Salaam after that. In 1971, he went to Tabora. In 1975, he went to officers college in DSM. He served as a corporal in the army and a driver from 1975 to 1977. In 1977, he joined the Navy. After a year, he went to Brigada captain in DSM, until 1981. He was in Mwanzi Nyagezi from 1981 to 1988. From 1989 to 1991, he went to teach at Arusha officers' college. In 1991, he came back to Fort Ikoma, and from 1991 to 1992 was in Kiabakali. He retired in December 1994 and came back to Ikoma, where he had one child. Samweli Muya Mongita was born in 1930 in Ikoma Mwani on the road to Sibora. In 1943, he started primary school in Robanda. He went to school in Musoma in 1946. From 1947 to 1950, he went home. In 1951, he went to Mwanzato to get work and found a job in casual labor on a machine. He went to Arusha for work in 1952 and joined the police course. He then went to DSM to get training and was posted in Tanga as FFU. In 1958, he went home to get married to Ama Mekaba. He was posted to Korogwe in 1960, and his first child was born there. In 1962, he went to Mwanza with the police; in 1953, he was posted to Tarime. He retired in 1967 and came home to Nyichoka. In 1974, he came to Mugumu with villagization. His parents had already gone to Issenye when they moved villages.

Transcript

* CHECK FOR KILUGHA, COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT IN SWAHILI, TAPE #260-261 # 260 COMPLETE {TAPE # 260, DONE BY NYAMUSI MAGATTI, AUGUST 2OO9} {SIDE A} Jan: kwahiyo wewe jina lako kamili? George: naitwa George Wambura Rihamba Jan: George nani? George: kwa jina la nyumbani George Wambura Jan: haha George: Gehamba Jan: Gehamba nani? George: Gehamba Siwa Jan: Siwa nani? George: Siwa Gehamba tena Jan: ni Rihamba au Gehamba? George: Gehamba Jan: Na Gehemba? George: sasa hapo siwezi nikajua Jan: sawasawa na ekehita yako? George: mraji Jan: na kwa sega ni upande gani? George: mchapani mkihoja Jan: na wao walifanya saro ni mwaka gani? George: eeh hamsini na tano Jan: haha na hii ni upande wa wasahi, warumaranja, bungerati? George: wasahi Jan: sawasawa na kwa rikora pia ni, ulifanya rikora? George: eeh rikora mimi sikuishi katika maisha ya hapa nilikuwa mtumishi nilikwenda huko nikiwa kijana wa miaka ishirini na tano, nikatoka nyumbani kuwa mtumishi wa serekali Jan: sawa au labda unipe historia hiyo, ulizaliwa lini? George: nilizaliwa 1937 Jan: ulizaliwa wapi? George: nilizaliwa Ikoma mtaa wa Mabokochabi Jan: sawa ni wapi ukitoka Robanda ni? George: Mgiroho [interruption] Jan: haya katika maisha yako uliwahi kufanya nini na nini? George: katika maisha yangu mimi mwaka hamsini na saba baada ya kuwa kijana wa miaka ishirini na tano nikaenda kutafuta maisha yangu Mwanza eeh nikaenda nikatafuta maisha yangu niakenda nikapata kazi kule, nikapata kazi shamba boi Jan: shmaba boi ina maana gani? George: mpishi aah hapana kijana wa bustani Jan: kwa nani? George: alikuwa mzungu mmoja alikuwa Kisimba Mwanza anaitwa Kwanza Jan: haha George: ilikuwa ni kisiwa Mwanza, mwaka hamsini na nane mwezi wa desemba Jan: haha ulikaa huko sana? George: nikakaa huko mwaka hamsini na nane huo ukaisha huyu bwana akaenda likizo ulaya na mimi nikarudi nyumbani Rubanda mpaka hamsini na tisa sasa januari, nikakaa hamsini na tisa hiyo mpaka hamsini na tisa mwezi wa tano akasema atakuja Mwanza tukutane Mwanza, nikatoka Robanda nikaenda Mwanza nilipofika Mwanza alikuwa kwa rafiki yake akasema huyu sasa hawzi kuja hapa mpaka aende Dar es salaam kwahiyo ukae hapa siku nne na baada ya siku nne akishafika kule lakini hajapata nyumba yake binafsi kwahiyo subiri siku nne hapo akishapata nyumba yake ya binafsi basi ndiyo utakwenda, nikakaa mwanza siku nne mwezi wa tano huo basi mwezi wa tano huo tarehe tisa basi akapiga simu, nikaondoka Mwanza kwenda Dar es salaam Jan: haha George: nilipofika Dar es salaam nikakuta huyu bwana ameshafika akanipokelea stesheni tuakenda kwenye nyumba yake binafsi, niakendelea kufanya kazi kwake, kazi yangu ileile Jan: ya bustani? George: eeh mtunza bustani na kufua nilikuwa nafua nguo, nikakaa pale tangu hamsini na tisa hiyo mpaka sitini na nne januari nikaacha kazi hiyo nikaingia jeshini Jan: haha kwanini uliamua kwenda jeshini? George: eeh tulipata mwito wa baba wa taifa Julius Kambarage Nyerere kwamba tulitaka kuunda jeshi la wananchi ya Tanzania, kuunda jeshi mpya sasa jeshi la wananchi, kwasababu kulikuwa na jeshi la waingereza sasa tulitaka kuunda jeshi la wananchi ya watanzania kwahiyo nikafuata wito huo, eeh nikakubaliana na bwana yule akasema basi nenda jeshini, nikaenda nikajiunga, kwanza kwenda jeshini nikaanza na National Service, tarehe mbili mwezi wa pili, nikafanya hapo januari hiyo mpaka tarehe moja mwezi wa sita nikaingia jeshi Jan: haha sawa halafu George: tukaingia jeshi tarehe moja mwezi wa sita mpaka tahere moja septemba tukamaliza mafunzo ya jeshi, tukagawiwa kwenye vikosi sasa, mimi nikaperekwa kusini mwa Tanzania, nikakaa kule, tukaenda kufanya ulinzi katika kusini mwa Tanzania, tukaaa huko mwezi wa kumi tulikwenda Chingwea, nikakaa pale mpaka sitini na nane mwezi wa tatu nikaja Dar es salaam Jan: ulikuwa bado kuoa? George: aah nilioa Chingwea baada ya miaka mitatu, sitini na saba nilioa Jan: haha ni mke wa hapa au wa huko? George: wa hapa Jan: kwahiyo ulirudi nyumbani uka..? George: nikaja likizo nikaja nikaoa halafu nikaenda naye kazini sasa Jan: haha anaitwaje? George: anaitwa Rista Nyamasagare Jan: sawa haha ulirudi tena Dar es salaam George: aah ilikuwa bado sitini na saba, nilipooa nilikuwa bado Machingwea nikarudi huko, sitini na nane nikahamia Dar es salaam sasa kule nilikaa miaka mitatu, Dar es salaam nimekaa mkapa sabini na moja halafu nikahamia Tabora Jan: mmh sawa George: nikakaa mpaka sabini na tano nikarudishwa tena Dar es salaam kituo cha Maswa cha jeshi, sehemu moja inaitwa Kurasini, kipindi hicho sasa nilishakuwa koplo wa jeshi na mimi nilikuwa dereva Jan: sawa George: nikakaa sabini na tano hiyo Kurasini sabini na saba januari nikahamia Kigamboni Jan: mmh sawasawa George: nikakaa Kigamboni sabini na saba hiyo, mwaka moja tu, sabini na sita nikaenda kule Makoma Dar es salaam hapohapo Jan: haha sawa George: pale nikakaa sabini na saba mpaka themanini na moja nikahamia Mwanza Nyegezi, pale nikakaa mpaka themanini na nane nikahamia hapa kwetu Ikoma Jan: mmh sawa George: eeh kwahiyo nikahamia hapa Ikoma themanini na nane, nikakaa mwaka moja tu, themanini na tisa nikaenda kule (not clear), nikakaa themanini na tisa mpaka tisini niakrudishwa Boti mpaka tisini na mbili nikaenda Chiabakari Jan: mmh kwa kazi gani hapo? George: hiyo hiyo kwenye kikosi Jan: haha George: tisini na nne nikastaafu kazi sasa desemba Jan: haha sawa halafu ukarudi tena? George: eeh nikarudi nyumbani Jan: sawasawa na watoto una watoto wangapi? George: watoto nina mmoja Jan: sawa haya labda twende kwa mzee mwingine Jan: jina lako? Samweli: Samweli Mbuya Mongita Jan: na Mongita ni wa nani? Samweli: Mwishagori Jan: na Mwishagori? Samweli: Mwokibeni Jan: haha Mwokibeni? Samweli: ni mwisho Jan: aah sawasawa na kwa ekehita? Samweli: mrati Jan: na kwa warati ni upande gani? Samweli: busahi Jan: busahi haha na saro yenu ilikuwa ni nini? Samweli: ni moja Jan: kwahiyo mlikuwa pamoja? Samweli: eeh sisi wote ni rika moja Jan: haha hamsini na? Samweli: na tano Jan: haha sawasawa ulizaliwa lini? Samweli: thelathini Jan: kwahiyo unamzidi kidogo Samweli: eeh namzidi Jan: ulizaliwa wapi Samweli: Ikoma kule kijiji cha Mwani, mtaa ule unaitwa Mwani Jan: ni karibu na hapa? Samweli: eeh karibu na barabara ya zamani ya kwenda Sibora huko Jan: haha Samweli: [kilugha] Jan: kwahiyo katika maisha yako labda ueleze ulikuwa unafanya nini? Samweli: mimi baada ya kukaa nyumbani nikaenda jeshi ya Musoma Rubanda, niliendelea na hiyo mpaka arubaini na sita, bikaacha nikarudi arubaini n asaba nikakaa nyumbani mpaka mwaka hamsini na moja niliondoka nyumbani nikaenda Mwanza Jan: haha Samweli: Mwanza nimefanya kibarua katika mashine ya kusindika brashi, halafu nikatoka Mwanza mwaka hamsini na mbili nikaenda arusha nilikuwa natafuta kazi tu kutafuta maisha sasa Arusha mwaka hamsini na mbili nikaingia katika kikosi cha polisi Jan: sawa Samweli: jeshi la polisi nikaenda Dar es salaam kwenye mafunzo, mpaka mwezi wa tisa nikamaliza mafunzo ya polisi Jan: haha hamsini na? Samweli: hamsini na mbili Jan: haha Samweli: halafu nilipomaliza nikaperekwa Tanga, nikakaa huko mpaka hamsini na nne nikaenda Korogwe, Korogwe kule nikakaa mpaka hamsini na tisa, lakini kabla ya hapo hamsini na nane nilirudi nikaoa Jan: haha Samweli: nikaoa Anna Mekaba, sitini tukapata mtoto wa kwanza huko Korogwe Jan: aah sawa Samweli: mwaka sitini na mbili nikahamia Mwanza nikiwa katika hii idara ya polisi, sitini na tatu nikahamia Tarime mpaka sitini na saba mwezi wa sita nikahachishwa kazi, sabini na nne (not clear too much background noise) nimekuwa hapa mpaka sasa Jan: mmh kwanini uliamua kwenda Nyachoka badala ya kurudi Robanda? Samweli: aah hapana sasa ile ilikuwa ni ihari ya mtu Jan: aah Samweli: eeh ihari ya mtu, wakati huo kwetu tulikuwa tumekwishahama kutoka Robanda tulikuwa Isenye, sasa niakona nirudi karibu na.. (not clear) Jan: na ulikuwa unavutwa na kitu Fulani huko ambayo uliona ni mahali pazuri uende kukaa? Samweli: (not clear) karibu na barabara (not clear) walipohamisha vijiji vya jamaa wakapabomoa nikaja hapa sasa Jan: aah sawa Samweli: nikaenda nikajenga barabarani Jan: aah sawasawa sasa naona nyinyi wote sehemu kubwa ya maisha mlikuwa nje kwa kufanya kazi hii wakati ule ilikuwa kawaida wengi walitoka au nyinyi mlikuwa tofauti na wengine? George: aah wengi vijana walikuwa wanatoka inategemea na mtu unapopendelea unajua mtu ukishakuwa mkubwa kidogo unataka utafute maisha yako, maana sasa huwezi kukaa unawategemea wazee, ukishakuwa mkubwa na miaka ishirini kuendelea mpaka ishirini na tano kuendelea unataka utafute maisha yako upate kazi ufanye, uoe, upate watoto, uwe katika mji wako wewe binafsi Jan: kwasababu uliona mzee alikuwa hana ng#ombe wa kutosha? George: aah mimi mzee wangu alikuwa ana mbuzi, kwahiyo nikaona nijitafutie maisha ya kupata pato ili nijisaidie katika maisha yangu Jan: hata wewe uliona baba hakuwa.. Samweli: hata mimi, baba hakuwa na mali ya kuweza kunitosha kwahiyo niliona nitafute mali niweze kuoa Jan: haha Samweli: anilipokuwa huko nikanunua mifugo nikaoa Jan: na ulipoona hasa hawa ambao baba hakuweza kuwasaidia ambao walitoka kufanya kazi au hata? Samweli: aah hapana alikuwa anawasaidia tu Jan: haha Samweli: wengine wanasaidina, wale wadogo unawatunza Jan: sawa hata baba zenu walikuwa wanaenda nje kufanya kazi? Samweli: eeh wengine walikuwa wanaenda Jan: kwa mfano baba yako alienda kufanya kazi? Samweli: hata Jan: na yako? George: mimi vilevile hakwenda Jan: aah George: mimi baba yangu hakwenda alikuwa anafanya kazi ya kilimo tu, analima chakula, akipata chakula labda anauza mbuzi anauza ng#ombe ndiyo ilikuwa kazi yao lakini kazi ya kwenda nje kulikuwa hakuna ilikuwa ni hapahapa, kazi ilikuwa ni kulima tu, akipata mazao anauza na kupata mahitaji Jan: au waliwahi kufanya biashara huko sukuma baba zenu? George: eeh biashara walikuwa wanafanya lakini biashara na wasukuma walikuwa wanafanya biashara ya wanyama Jan: ya wanyama pori? George: kwasababu sisi ni wawindaji, sasa walikuwa ikifika mwezi wa sita wameshamliza kuvuna, sasa ni kiangazi mwezi wa sita mpaka mwezi wa kumi na mbili walikuwa wanakwenda kuwinda kwenye mapori wanakwenda kule kuwinda wanyama wanapata wanyama na ile mikia ya nyumbu basi wanapereka usukumani, wanakwenda zile nyama wanauza wanaweza kupata mbuzi na ile mkia wa nyumbu wanauza vilevile wanabadilisha wanapata labda ndama kama moja, labda na mikia mimi nina tati huyu ana nne basi ile mkia tunabadilisha ng#ombe. Huyo ng#ombe tunamchangia tunakuja naye nyumbani na mbuzi tunakuja nao nyumbani sasa tunamlisha sasa akizaa tunaweza tukagawana, akizaa mtoto wa kwanza anachukua huyu, labda akizaa mtoto wa pili anachukua huyu sasa mimi nabaki na yule, ndio biashara ilikuwa inafanyika na tumbaku vilevile hapa walikuwa wanapereka tumbaku sukuma sana Jan: haha George: kwa kutumia sigara, wananusa Jan: haha kwahiyo ilikuwa hasa kazi ya akina baba zenu ambao walienda sukumani, ikifika rika yenu mlikuwa mnaenda sukuma au hapana? Samweli: ilikuwa kama sisi# George: wengine baadhi yetu, rika yetu walikuwa wanakwenda, ila ambaye hakuwahi kwenda kutafuta makazi kwenye miji walikuwa wanaenda Jan: haha na hata kabla ya tuseme wakati wa babu walikuwa wanafanya nini ili na wao wapate mali? George: babu zetu waliozaa baba zetu? Jan: mmh George: wale walikuwa ni kulima, walikuwa wanalima sana, sisi wa Ikoma zao letu hasa ilikuwa ni ulezi na mtama ndio zao kuu ilikuwa, walikuwa wanalima mashamba amkubwa ya ulezi na mtama, sasa wakishavuna kama una ulezi mwingi, na watu wote walikuwa hawapati chakula wengine hawawezi kulima, wengine labda..basi wanauziana, yule ambaye hana chakula basi analeta mbuzi anakupa wewe unapatia, labda kama ni ng#ombe anakupa ng#ombe wewe unampa chakula, ndio kazi waliokuwa wanafanya wanabadilishana, lakini kazi hawakwenda kutafuta, unajua babu zetu wazungu walikuwa hawajaenea sana, kwahiyo walikuwa wanafanya kazi hizi za kulima tu, kubadilishana ng#ombe, mbuzi wanauziana halafu mtu anapata mali anaoa na kuwinda Jan: babu alikuwepo wakati wa wajerumani kufika? George: eeh mimi sijui kama babu alikuwepo lakini babu mzaa mama alikuwepo maana walijenga hapa Foti kwasababu mama aliniambia akasema wajerumani walivyokuja mama alikuwa kama wewe wakasema wajerumani walivyokuja babu akajenga Foti basi walikuwa wawili Jan: baba George: babu yangu mzaa mama, wanakimbia kumpokea, alikuwa ananihadithia mama Jan: walikuwa huko karibu na Foti George: eeh walikuwa Robanda pale, ukitoka Foti ukivuka mto basi maeneo yale ndio walikuwa, kwahiyo wale wazee walikuwa wanajenga Foti jioni wanakuja nyumbani Jan: inawabidi kila mtu aende kuwasaidia kujenga ilikuwa lazima? George: wale walikuwa wanashikwa na watemi, si walikuja wakaweka watemi sasa wale watemi walikuwa wanapita kwenye miji, wakipata vijana kama hawa wapo basi wanasema wewe na wewe basi mnakwenda kujenga boma, wale vijana ndio walikuwa wanakwenda kujenga Jan: haha unajenga kwa siku Fulani halafu unatoka tena? George: aah walikuwa wanajenga tu, hiyo ikiisha wanakwenda kupigana Samweli: tuseme wale walipofika waliamua kujenga ile boma, wakishajenga tayari wamemaliza kazi imeisha lakini walijenga Jan: na walisumbua sana watu kushika wajenge? Samweli: unajua wale walipofika pale illikuwa matatizo maana wale waliokuwa wanajenga lazima wajenge kwa nguvu kwasababu ile ilikuwa ni kikosi ya jeshi, walikuwa wakali sana wa Ikoma hawasikii Kiswahili basi ikawa wanasumbuanasumbuana lakini baadaye wakishaelewana walipokwishajenga wakaona ni afhadali Jan: na katika enzi za babu uliwahi kusikia kwamba walipata njaa kubwa sana au ulisikia kwa babu? Samweli: njaa iliwahi kutokea mwaka moja, mimi bibi yangu mzaa mama alisema ilikuja njaa kubwa sana sijui ni mwaka gani Jan: ilikuwa inaitwaje hiyo njaa Samweli: walikuwa wanaita njaa ya miguu maana yake waliugua miguu [kilugha] Jan: agecha magora sawasawa Samweli: sasa walikuwa wanasema agecha magora walikuwa wanajitahidi sana, chakula kilikuwa kinapatikana usukumani unajua wasukuma sisi tulikuwa tuna uhusiano mzuri, tulikuwa na mazoea, sasa mtu kama alikuwa na uwezo wa kuhama anaweza kuondoka akaenda usukumani kutafuta chakula kuletea watoto na wengine.. Jan: walikaa kabisa Samweli: walikwenda wengine walikaa huko moja kwa moja Jan: kwa miaka Samweli: mpaka leo wanakaa huko huko, wakageuka kuwa wasukuma na wengine wakarudi na wengine hata walikuwa wanaooza watoto wanapata chakula Jan: haha pia walipereka wanyama pori huko kubadilisha ili wapate chakula au hii bado wakati wa njaa? Samweli: aah hiyo ilikuwa bado, hiyo ilikuwa ni kabla ya hapo Jan: lakini walipokuwa huko wakaona kwamba kumbe wasukuma wanapenda mikia? Samweli: eeh wasukuma wanapenda mikia, eeh kwasababu wale mabinti wa kisukuma walikuwa wanaita kama# [THE END OF SIDE A] [SIDE B] Samweli: wanashika halafu wale mabinti wa kisukuma walikuwa wanapenda, sasa ni umaridadi sasa wanakwenda kucheza ngoma, ilikuwa ni sifa yao umaridadi walikuwa wanavaa na kuchezea ngoma sasa hawa walipojua wakazidisha sana kuwinda kwenda kuuza wapate biashara Jan: na wao walioenda kufanya hii biashara ya udodi wakatajirika wakapata ng#ombe wengi au si sana? Samweli: si sana, ilikuwa kadri tu Jan: haha kwahiyo hakuna kipindi unaweza kusema wa Ikoma walikuwa na ng#ombe wengi sana au ilikuwepo ? Samweli: walikuwa na ng#ombe wa kiasi isipokuwa miaka ya karibuni walikuja kuwa mbuzi wengi kuliko ng#ombe, walikuwa na mbuzi wengi sana, unakuta mtu ana mbuzi sabini wanalala kwenye manyumba tatu, zamani hasahasa ilikuwa ni kilimo Jan: ni akina nani? Samweli: babu zetu na baba zetu ndio waliendelea kutajirika hawakuwa na matatizo Jan: mmh na naona nyinyi wote mlipoenda kufanya kazi jeshhi na polisi hii ni kawaida kwa wa Ikoma wanapenda kazi ya aina hiyo? Samweli: hapana kuna wengi walifanya kazi za aina mbalimbali kuna wengine walikwenda tuseme ni kila mtu alichobahatika kupata Jan: lakini si kweli kwamba jeshi wengi wanatoka mkoa wa Mara? Samweli: wengi wanatoka mkoa wa Mara Jan : kwanini ? Samweli : watu wa mkoa wa Mara wana nguvu sana kwahiyo jeshi wanapenda mtu mwenye nguvu hawapendi mtu mvivu Jan : haha Samweli : wanasema ni mtu fiti, sasa mtu mvivu jeshi haitaji sasa watu wa mkoa wa Mara ni watu wenye nguvu ya kufanya kazi, vijana wana nguvu sana ya kufanya kazi kwahiyo wazungu wakawapenda Jan : aah kumbe au hii inatokana na kazi ya huko porini kuwindawinda walikuwa tafu sana au inatokana na nini ? Samweli : pamoja na hiyo kazi lakini vilevile maumbile yao ilikuwa ni ngumu ya kufanya kazi porini, kulima , kwahiyo kazi zao ilikuwa ni kazi ngumu kwahiyo kama wewe unazaa mtoto unapata anapenda kazi ya baba yake na mama yake, hata kijana wangu alikuwa askari Jan : kwahiyo hata leo wengi wa jeshi wanatoka mkoa wa Mara? George : hapana hata mikoa mingine lakini percentage kubwa inakuwa mikoa ya huku Jan : mmmh na zamani hapa mlikuwa na hizi machimbo kama Buhemba au Nyegoti wengi waliwahi kufanya kazi hiyo au hawakupenda hii kazi ya machimbo ? George : aah walifanya mpaka Kilimafedha walifanya, baba zetu walifanya, na baadhi ya rika letu waliotutangulia wao walifanya Buhemba, Kilimafedha Jan : kwahiyo sio kwamba watu walikataa kazi ile ya machimbo ? George : aah hapana Jan : waliona ni sawa? George : eeh wailifanya kuwapatia manufaa, wakapata hela wakanunua mbuzi, wakanunua ng#mbe wakaoa Jan : au kwenda mpaka Magadisoda walienda? George : eeh walienda Samweli: walikuwa wanakwenda kwa miguu sasa Jan : haha Samweli: sasa rika yetu hiyo hasa wakubwa wanaotuzidi kidogo walienda sana Magadisoda Jan: haha na Nairobi Samweli: eeh na Nairobi Jan: haha George : rika yetu wale wakubwa sasa Jan : walipenda sana sehemu hiyo? George : walipenda sana, hata Magadisoda wengi walikwenda Jan : kwanini walipenda hiyo? George : eeh kazi ilikuwa inapatikana kule na wenyewe wanapenda kufanya kazi ili wapate maisha mazuri kwahiyo wakisikia mtu labda amekwenda amefanya kazi amerudi wanakuja na hela wananunua mbuzi basi na mtu mwingine anapenda basi wakawa wanakwenda kwa mwamuko huo Jan : haha na ninyi mnavyoona vijana wa siku hizi mnaona na pia wao wana nguvu ya kwenda kupata kazi na kurudi na mali au? George : wanaweza lakini sasa hivi ndio kazi haipo, zamani ilikuwa kazi si ya kutafuta sana ukienda ukitafuta kazi tu unapata lakini sasa kazi zimekuwa chache Jan : haha George : wanapenda wafanye lakini kazi hayapo Jan : kwahiyo imekuwa ni shida kuliko wakati ule ambao.. George : ukienda unapata tu mkienda kama watu kumi mnakwenda Magadisoda wote mnaingia Jan : wote mnapata? George : mnapata, ilikuwa si rahisi mtu kwenda kutafuta kazi ukakosa ukarudi nyumbani Jan : na malipo yalikuwa ni mazuri? George : si mabaya sana Samweli: mimi nilipoanza kufanya kazi, ya kwanza kabisa ilikuwa hamsini na sita nilianza kwa shilingi sita Jan : kwa mwezi George : eeh kwa mwezi Jan : lakini iliweza kununua vitu vingi? George : aah shilingi mbili ulikuwa unanunua mbuzi, halafu baadaye nilipokwenda Mwanza mwaka hamsini na saba ndio nilianzia mshahara wa shilingi sitini, hapo ikawa imeshapanda kidogo Jan : naona imepanda sana, mara kumi George : eeh shilingi sitini Samweli: mimi nilipoanza kazi ya polisi depo kwenye mafunzo nilikuwa Napata shilingi sitini na moja Jan : haha Samweli: natoka depo Napata shilingi mia na mbili, zilikuwa zinatosha Jan: hata kutuma nyumbani zingine unatuma? Samwel: natuma, ukitumba shilingi mia mbili wananunua karibu ng#ombe tatu Jan : ooh ok, kwahiyo mnaona maisha ya siku hizi ni ngumu kuliko wakati ule? SamwelI: inalingana kwasababu ya wakati, wakati huu ukiwa na shilingi laki moja zamani ulikuwa kama laki moja, ulikuwa na mia mbili zamani ni kama laki moja Jan: haha na nyinyi wote mlianza kuwa watu wazima wakati wa uhuru ilipoingia? Samweli : uhuru imenikuta kazini Jan : na nyinyi mmewahi kufanya kazi katika chama cha TANU au kwa kugombania uhuru au? Samweli : tulijaribu kidogo, mimi nimeingia chama cha TANU hamsini na tisa baada ya miaka miwili, sitini na moja tukapata uhuru, sasa wakati tulikuwa vijana miaka ishirini na tano, ishirini na tatu Jan : mkafanyaje ili mpate? Samweli: mimi kwa upande wa polisi hatukuhurusiwa, haikuruhusiwa askari kuwa mwanachama mpaka baada ya uhuru sitini na nne mwezi wa nane ndipo serekali ikaamua askari polisi wanaweza kuingia chama, nikaingia sasa chama kule Tarime Jan: lakini nyinyi mlikuwa kwenye siasa ambayo mlitaka mpate uhuru na nini? Samweli: ndio tulikuwa tunapenda tupate uhuru, tulipoingia ile chama, huyu sasa alikuwa mbele yangu yeye alishakuwa askari mimi nilikuwa raia nilikata kadi ya TANU, sasa ilikuwa ile kadi ya TANU unalipa kwa kila mwezi ulikuwa unalipa senti hamsini, tulikuwa na kadi mbili kadi ya vijana na kadi ta chama ya TANU, kwahiyo ulikuwa unalipa senti hamsini kila mwezi ya kuchangia chama Jan : na uliwahi kusikia Nyerere anapoongea? Samweli: eeh nilisikia, mimi mwalimu Nyerere nilimuona mwaka hamsini na tano mara ya kwanza kabisa alikuja Robanda alitokea Arusha akaja akalala kwa chief Rihoja, ndio siku ya kwanza nilimuona mwalimu Nyerere, nilikuwa mdogo tu sijaenda kufanya kazi yoyote Jan: haha na mlipokuwa wadogo mlipata chief wa Ikoma alikuwa nani? Samweli: sisi tulipoanza wajani yani kujua alikuwa chief Nyambehu Jan: haha yeye alianza lini kuwa chief? Samweli: hiyo siwezi kujua kwasababu tulikuwa wadogo, siwezi kujua ilikuwa mwaka gani, mimi nilipoanza kuingia shule yeye alikuwa chief Jan: na baada ya Nyambehu alikuwa nani? Samweli: akawa Machabe kijana wake George : akawa Machabe Nyambehu Samweli: Nyambehu alikaa mwaka moja arubaini na tano hiyohiyo akawa ameharibu akafanya makosa akawekwa chief Marasi Georrge: Marasi ndio akawa chief Jan : halafu akakaa? George : akakaa mwaka mmoja akafariki sasa wakamweka kijana wake anaitwa Machaba Marasi Jan : akakaa yeye sana? Samweli: mpaka sasa uhuru umemkuta, ndio wanasema mwalimu alikuja akakaa kwake pale Rubanda hamsini na nane Jan: babu zenu waliwaambia walivyochagua chief wa kwanza kwa wa Ikoma wakampataje? Samweli: {kilugha} George: wa kwanza ndio huyo ulikuwa unamsikia Jan : kwa wajerumani George : eeh Jan : na ulisikia walimpataje au hukusikia hiyo historia? George : walikuwa wanakuja wanasema kwamba wanapendekeza majina sasa wanawasimamisha sasa wanasema huyo mtu ambaye wanampenda awe chief basi wewe unasimama, na mwingine anasimama basi atakayekuwa na wingi ndio anapta uchief Jan : haha Samweli: wazungu wakija wakisema wanataka chief wanawaambia wa Ikoma, sasa wa Ikoma wanaitana milango yote wanakaa mkutano wanasema sasa nani tumweke uchief, sasa wa Ikoma wenyewe walikuwa wanajua mtu mwenye tabia nzuri anaweza akawawakilisha basi wanasema fulani George : wanasema tena mwingine tena wanataja, labda majina mawili Samweli: wanasema sasa nani anampenda Fulani, na nani wanampenda Fulani, basi kama wananipenda mimi wanasimama mgongoni mwangu na wanayempenda huyu wanasimama mgongoni mwake sasa wanahesabu, sasa yule akipata watu wengi ndiye anakuwa chief George : ndivyo walivyochagua Jan : na watu walikuwa wanawapenda machief ya wakoloni au wakaona wanalazimisha mambo mabaya? Samweli: hapana walikuwa wanachagua ni watu wao, maana wanapomchagua huyu George : aah wenyeji walikuwa wanawapenda Samweli: maana walikuwa wanamchagua mtu wa kabila yao sasa walikuwa hawana matatizo naye halafu wanajua chief kazi yake anawaunganisha wale wenyeji na wakoloni anakuwa katikati kwahiyo anawaunganisha, kama mzungu anakuja kisiri anataka watu wafanye kazi gani na nini wanamwambia chief, chief anawaita watu wake anawaambia tunataka tufanye hiki na hiki na hiki, kwahiyo chief alikuwa anawaunganisha watu Jan : lakini kama wakoloni wanawalazimisha wafanye kazi ambayo watu hawapendi si wanamkasirikia huyu chief wanaona huyu? Samweli: hapana hawawezi wakafanya hivyo George: wao wanasema waliokuwa wanawakasirikia ni wale wakoloni si chief wao maana amri imetoka kwa mkoloni Jan : aah sawa maana nikisoma kwenye hii nyaraka za wakoloni wanasema kwamba kuna kipindi waliona kuna njaa huko Robanda wanataka watu walime mihogo lakini chief anakataa na wao wanasema kwanini hawataki kulima mihogo sasa niambie kwanini hawakupenda kulima hii mihogo George : kwanza chief alikuwa anawaita akishapata amri anawaita wale wazee sasa anakaa nao anawaambia nyinyi mnaonaje, sasa wale wanasema nchi hata ukilima haiwezi ikastawi maana ilikuwa ni nchi kame, mvua ilikuwa chache Jan : mmh kwahiyo anarudi kuwaaambia wakoloni hatuwezi Samweli: anasema hii ardhi haistawishi mihogo George : sasa akishawaambia mkoloni basi anasema hapana kwasababu ya njaa hii waambie lazima walime, basi wanalima, sasa wanalima ovyoovyo kwasababu ni kitu hakitastawi, wanalima ovyoovyo kwasababu wamelazimishwa Jan : haha kama sikosei hii amri ya mihogo ilikuwa hata mwaka thelathini na kitu? George :eeh Samweli: hata arubaini na tano walileta wakaipanda lakini ikakataa, kila sehemu kitongoji kama hiki wanachagua mahala Fulani wanalima pamoja wanapanda hiyo mihogo Jan : lakini haikustawi Samweli: haikustawi kwasababu nchi ni kame, inaota lakini haitoi inakauka Jan: mmh kwahiyo wakati wa njaa kama waliona mihogo haiwezi kuwasaidia walifanya nini ili kusaidiwa wakati wa njaa, ulivyowaona? Samweli: walikuwa wanapata chakula kwa watu ambao walikuwa wamelima ulezi maana ulezi ilikuwa inakubali, walikuwa wanatafutatafuta chakula ya kuweza kuwasaidia Jan: mmh kwa mfano miti gani? Samweli: kwa mfano wanaita kitani wanachuma na kuna mboga Fulani na asali Jan: na asali walikuwa wanapata wapi? Samweli: walikuwa wanapata kwenye miti na kwenye vichuguu George : wengine wanatengeneza mizinga Jan : na kuwinda waliwinda zaidi wakati wa njaa? George : wanyama ndio waliweza kuwasaidia Jan : haha Samweli: wanyama na wanyama za mifugo Jan: wakaenda kuwabadilisha au wakala tu? Samweli: za kula tu, na kubadilisha vilevile unaweza ukapata nyama kiasi labda tani kumi basi unakausha unabadilisha huko Ikizu , zanaki Jan: kwahiyo wakati wa njaa huu uwindaji ikawa sehemu kubwa ya maisha yao? Samweli: eeh ndiyo kwasababu anajua akipata nyama atapata chakula George : sababu wakawa, ili waue kwa wingi wakawa wanachimba mashimo, wanchimba shimo refu, halafu wanaleta wanyama pale wanakufa wengi Samweli: wakishajaa wale wengine wanakufa mle George: kijiji kizima sasa kinahamia pale, zile nyama wanapereka nyumbani inakuwa ni sehemu chao ya chakula Jan : haha na hii shimo zilikuwa zinaitwaje kwa Ikoma? Samweli: riko George : au obini Jan : haha na waliua wengi ambao hata nyama hawakuweza kutumia au walitumia nyama zote? Samweli: nyama waliweza kutumia kiasi, za kutumia na za kukausha Jan: haha na nyingine? George : hiyo wanakausha wanaweka kwenye maghala Samweli: si ndio ilikuwa chakula Jan : haha na hii ilikuwa wakati hata wa baba hata wa babu hata nyinyi? Samweli: walikuwa wanaendelea, kuna miaka sio miaka yote iliyokuwa na njaa kuna miaka Jan: hasa unaweza ukakumbuka ni miaka gani njaa ilikuwa kubwa? Samweli: miaka ambayo mimi nilipokuwa mkubwa arubaini na tatu mpaka arubaini na saba ilikuwa njaa, hiyo ilisababisha hata ile shule ya Robanda ikasimama maana watu walihama kwa wingi Jan: hata kwa miaka mine mitano inaweza kuwa Samweli: njaa kabisa Jan: njaa kabisa nini inasababisha hii? Samweli: ni ukame mvua inakuwa chache, hiyo sehemu ya kwetu ni uwanda wa chini ndio maana wakati mwingine wakahamua wahamie hapa, maana hapa mazao yanastawi kama viazi chakula kingi zinastawi Jan: lakini kabla ya miaka hiyo hii sehemu ya Rubanda ilikuwa ni pazuri tu? Samweli: ni pazuri tu wakati mwingine kama inanyesha ni pazuri kama mvua haipo inakuwa shida Jan: na mvua kawaida yake inaenda inakuja kwa kipindi chake? George : eeh Jan : kila baada ya miaka mingapi Samweli: kila mwaka, maana Robanda wanaanza kulima desemba mpaka mwezi wa sita wanavuna basi mvua inakimbia mpaka desemba tena Jan: lakini kawaida wanaweza wakahesabu kuna miaka minne nitano bila mvua tena inarudi kwa miaka? Samweli: eeh Jan: kwa miaka ngapi ambayo wanaona au hakuna? Samweli: hakuna hesabu labda inaweza kuwa kwa miaka mitatu minne halafu ikawa neema tena kwa miaka tena minne, miwili Jan: hamwezi kujua Samweli: hatuwezi, haina kipindi maalum tangu tumekuwa sasa inakuwa hivyohivyo, miaka miwili inakuwa mizuri miaka miwili inakuwa tena ni shida tu Jan: kwahiyo wanaangalia tu tuhame tusihame? Samweli: aah sasa hakuna kuhama, sasa wakati huutuliopo sisi usafiri ni mzuri unaweza ukafuata chakula, kwahiyo hamna kuhamahama sababu wale walikuwa wanahama sababu hawana usafiri, walikuwa wantembea kwa miguu unatoka hapa labda unafuata chakula Tarime kwa miguu labda ikizu au Ikoma au zanaki maeneo hayo ndio walikuwa wanafuata chakula, Tarime, Ngorime, Zanaki, Ikizu na Sukuma kwahiyo kwas asa hivi hakuna shida ya kuhama sababu magari yako mengi, ukitaka kufuata chakula mwanza unafuata unakuja, hata Tarime au Arusha kinakuja George : mara ya mwisho njaa iliyokuwa kali sana mwaka arubaini n asaba na arubaini na nane hiyo ndiyo ilifanya wa Ikoma wakatawanyika, wengine wakaenda Ikizu, wengine wakaenda usukuma Jan : mmh aah kumbe na wakati ule serekali ilileta chakula vilevile? Samweli: nakumbuka mwaka arubaini na tano bwana DC alikuja mpaka shuleni akamuuliza mwalimu kwanini watoto hawapo? Akasema ni shauri ya njaa, akasema je nikileta chakula wanaweza wakawepo, akasema ndio walileta lori nzima, halafu mzee moja akaleta chakula loris asa watoto wanapitia pale tunakula lakini vilevile kwasababu njaa ilizidi kuwa kali ikaonekana vilevile haikuwa dawa, wanasaidia watoto lakini wazee kule nyumbani ni njaa, mtoto aliyekuwa anakwenda kusoma anaweza kula, waliobaki nyumbani hawakuweza kula kwahiyo ikaonekana haikusadia sana George : ikafika arubaini na nane wakawekwa wahindi pale, wanaleta unga wa mahindi ambao ilikuwa inaitwa reureu Jan : ilitengenezwa na nini? George : ilisagwa na mashine Samweli: wakasaga chakula wakaleta mahindi pale kwa wingi mwenye uwezo ananunua, watu wakaenda na mifugo pale George: kwahiyo mtu anauza ng#ombe yake ananunua reureu, ulikuwa ugali mtamu sana Jan : na ninyi mnaweza mlipokuwa watoto mliona wa Ikoma wengi walikuwa wanakaa karibu na robanda pale au walikuwa kwenye sehemu zingine? Samweli: walikuwa sehemu nyingi Jan: sasa taja sehemu ambazo walikuwa wanakaa? Samweli: kulikuwa na sehemu moja ilikuwa inaitwa Mrago Jan: Mrago ni wapi Samweli: ni magharibi sana ya Robanda, mito ilikwenda kukutania pale, walikuwa wanakaa pale George : wengine walikuwa wanakaa Masaka Jan : Masaka ambayo iko? George : ipo kusini mwa Robanda Samweli: kusini mashariki Jan : na hawa wote ni wasahi au hawa ambao wanakaa Mrago? George : hao wanakaa Mrago Samweli: Mrago walikuwa wanakaa wangerati George: eeh Mrago ni wangerati Jan : haha na Masaka? George : Masaka walikuwa wanakaa warumaranja Jan : haha George : yani abaranja, halafu kulikuwa na Kusurura Samweli: mashariki ya Robanda, pale unapita unakwenda Soronera Jan : na hawa ni wa nani George : waikumare burumarnja vilevile Jan : kwa sasa ipo ndani park au iko wapi? George : sehemu Jan : mwirage iko park Samweli: eeh George : na Masaka iko park Jan : haha na Bisururu? George : Bisururu iko huku, tukienda tunawez kukuonyesha Jan : kwahiyo hasa warumaranja walikuwa wanakaa magharibi zaidi? George : walikuwa mashariki ya kusini {THE END OF TAPE # 260, DONE BY NYAMUSI MAGATTI, AUGUST 2009} # 261 COMPLETE {TAPE # 261, DONE BY NYAMUSI MAGATTI, AUGUST, 2009} {SIDE A} Samweli: wamare wapo, warumaranja wapo, warumarunda wapo eeh hivyo hivyo Jan: na mlipokuwa unaona watu wanavyokaa walikuwa wako ndani ya sehemu ambao sasa ni park Samweli: kipindi kile sehemu kubwa sasa hivi ni park, nyingine imekuwa katika game reserve Jan: mmh kwahiyo watu walisemaje wakati game pamoja na park ikaja ikawafukuza au? Samweli: maana kwakweli hao watu wa bwana nyama wameifanya hiyo Ikoma imekuwa ndogo sana Jan: walifanyaje? George: walichokifanya hawakuwafukuza isipokuwa wa Ikoma wanapenda sana kuhama sasa wakihama wenyewe ile sehemu inachukuliwa Jan: haha kwahiyo wao wenyewe wanaonawahame hivi halafu wanachukua? George: kwa mfano ile sehemu tunayokwambia ya masaka walihama wenyewe wakaja huku wakavuka mto Romoti wakaja huku wale wakachukua, sasa sehemu ambayo wamkuja kuhamishwa kwa nguvu ni ile Mragu, walikuwa wamekataliako kabisa wakaja wakalazimika kuwaondoa Jan: hii ilikuwa wakati gani, mwaka gani? George: sitini na nane, sitini saba, Samweli : sasa pale walikuwa wamebaki wachache wakawaambia tunaona afadhali muhame maana mmebaki wachache waende kule kwenye watu, sasa walijaribu kukatalia sana lakini walitumia nguvu sasa George : hapo walitumia nguvu Jan : na kwenda mashariki ndani ya park mwisho wa waikoma kupakana na wamaasai ilikuwa Banagi au ni wapi ambao ni mwisho wa Ikoma ndani ya park kwa mashariki sasa au Banagi walikuwa hawa ? George : mpaka wetu na wamaasai ilikuwa mto Warangi Samweli : mpaka wetu ilikuwa kusini mashariki ilikuwa ni karibu na Banagi George : unajua Samwel mpaka wetu unakuja kuwa mto wa Abikore lakini mpaka wa kwanza ni Warangi, game reserve ilikuwa inaisha Banagi eeh Jan : lakini nani waliishi Banagi ? George: game reserve Jan: lakini waikoma walikuwa wameishi pale zamani? George: zamani eeh ndio Jan: ni akina nani kwa wa Ikoma ni urumaranja ni akina nani au hii ni zamani sana? George: {kilugha} walikuwa wanaishi hapo warumaranja Samweli: mpaka walikuwa wanasogea hapo wanahama wanasogea kuja magharibi Jan: haha na sababu ya kusogea ni wamaasai ni ya njaa ni kitu gani iliwatoa pale polepole? George: eeh kitu kilichokuwa kinawatoa pale polepole wanahama hasa wamaasai eeh vita vyao ilikuwa kubwa Samweli: vita ikiwa kali wakasogea karibu wakae pamoja wapate nguvu ya kupigana Jan: haha sasa baba alikuwa anawasimulia ile ya jinsi walivyopigana na wamaasai? George: eeh ndio walitusimulia Jan: haha Samweli: kwasababu wamaasai vita yetu na wao ilikuwa ni ng#ombe tu sasa wanaweza kuja usiku, sasa wanaweza kuja wengi sasa wakija usiku wanaingia kwenye mji kama hapa wanakuvamia wanachukua ng#ombe, wanaweza wakachukua ng#ombe mji huu, mji huu, karibu miji yote wanachukua George: {kilugha} Samweli: Ikoma tu#{kilugha}walikuwa wao wakija hasa wa Ikoma walipungua sana kwa ajili ya wamaasai, walikuwa wanakuja wanachoma nyumba, wanaua watu hata watoto wanaua, akina mama, wanachukua ng#ombe sasa wakishachukua ng#ombe hao wanatoka wanakwenda kupigana sana A: wanaume wakishasikia wamaasai wameingia basi wanapiga yowe sasa watoto hawa na akina mama wanakimbia wanakwenda kujificha kwenye vichaka sasa wale wanaume wanakwenda kupigana vita na wamaasai kuwanyang#anya ng#ombe na baadhi ya wamaasai wengine wakifika kichakani wakikuta akina mama na watoto wanajificha basi walikuwa wanaua George: {kilugha} nilikuwa wanahelimisha juu ya wamaasai walikuwa wanakuja mchana sasa siku walikuja mchana wakaja wengi A: walikuwa wao wametushambulia sana wakaenda wakaamua sasa twende tuwafukuze kabisa tuishi pale Jan: hii ilikuwa lini? George: hatukumbuki mwaka Jan: mlikuwa ninyi mlikuwepo? George: hapana tulikuwa hatujazaliwa, ni kati ya miaka hata baba zetu walikuwa hawajazaliwa Jan: haha kwahiyo wakawafukuza kabisa? George: inawezekana ikawa kati mwaka 1820 Samweli: wakati ya karne ya kumi na nane George: kwasababu wazee wetu hata hawa babu zetu hawakupigana nao walihadisiwa Jan: akina babu? George: eeh babu zetu waliambiwa, halafu na ndio wakawa wanawaambia baba zetu eeh kwahiyo wao hawakupigana, waliishi kabisa , walikuja na ngozi za kukalia ili wakimaliza kuwamaliza basi wanakaa lakini wa Ikoma waliwashinda, waliwaua wengi sana Samweli: wakauwawa wengi sana George: tangu hapo wamaasai sasa hawakuja kupigana vita tena, kwahiyo wakaenda wakakaa chini sasa wakasema hapana tuache hawa wa Ikoma, sasa walikuwa wanakuja ni kuiba tu mpaka leo, tangu hapo vita haikuweza kupigana tena, wanaita vita ya mchana ya wamaasai na wa Ikoma Jan: ilikuwa wajerumani bado kufika? George: walikuwa hawajafika, wajerumani walikuwa bado hawajafika Samweli: wanasema ni karne ya kumi na nane, wajerumani wao wamekuja mwaka gani, kumi na nne ndio wajerumani wameanza kuja Samweli: wameanza kujenga Foti, kumi na nne ndio vita imeanza, walikuja kabla ya kumi na nne walikuja kama kumi na nane hivi George: kumi na nane hapana, ukifika kumi na nane unarudi nyuma, kati ya kumi Samweli: elfu moja mia nane na kitu, maana walikuja wakajenga pale Foti wakakaa, hiyo vita ya kumi na nne walikuwa wameshakaa George: sasa muingereza wanataka kuwaondoa Jan: mmh na wajerumani walipigana na wamaasai pia? George: hapana Jan: haha hawakusaidia wa Ikoma kupigana na? George: hawakuwepo kwanza Jan: aah wakati walikuwepo? Samweli: wajerumani walikaa pale kikosi tu cha jeshi Jan: ya kufanya nini? Samweli: ya kulinda nchi George: kulinda utawala wao, lakini swala la wamaasai wametuibia ng#ombe ilikuwa ni swala letu sisi wenyewe hawakuhusika ni sisi na wamaasai Samweli: unajua kikosi cha jeshi hakihusiki na mambo haya ya utawala Jan: haha kwahiyo kwanini walichagua mahali? Samweli: Foti walipachagua kwasababu palikuwa katikati na palikuwa pazuri, plaikuwepo eneo zuri la mwinuko, walipachagua hapo kuweka kikosi cha jeshi Jan: haha kumbi Samweli: makao makuu ya wajerumani ilikuwa Mwanza, D.C alikuwa Musoma, hapa ilikuwa ni kikosi cha jeshi, kama vile Kiabakari George: na sababu kubwa wao wa Ikoma walikuwepo ng#ambo hiyo walikuwepo wa Nata, eeh walikuwepo wanata na wa Isenye, wa Isenye nao walikuwa ng#ambo hiyo, kesho tukiwa tunaenda nitakuonyesha waisenye walikuwa wanakaa wapi Jan: haha sawasawa George: sasa pale waliona ilikuwa mwinuko mzuri na ni katikati sasa wanakaa hapo, na mawasiliano yao yalikuwa yanaenda Mwanza Jan: na wamaasai wakati na wao walipopata njaa waliweza kuhemea Ikoma au hapana? Samweli: wamaasai wao kazi yao ni kula nyama George: kuenea kwao wakati wanapata njaa ndio ilikuwa wizi sasa inazidi, ndio sasa walikuwa wanatunyang#anya ng#ombe kwasababu sasa kulikuwa kuna njaa, eeh hawana namna sasa wanakuja kutunyang#anya ng#ombe, walikuwa hawali hiki chakula cha ugali wao ni maziwa na nyama na damu Jan: na kuna kipindi ambacho ng#ombe wao wengi wakauwawa na ugonjwa Fulani, maradhi uliwahi kusikia na wao wakapata shida sana labda ni wakati wa? George: inawezekana sasa wakati ule ndio sasa wakaamua kuja kutunyang#anya ng#ombe Samweli: hatukuwa tunawasiliana nao Jan: hakuna mawasiliano? George: adui na adui Samweli: sisi tulikuwa hatuendi umaasaini wao ni kuja hapa na kuiba, kwahiyo mawasiliano kulikuwa hakuna Jan: na mlikuwa na mawasiliano na abasi? Samweli: eeh wandorobo hao tulikuwa na mawasiliano nao Jan: haha lakini ni kama wamaasai au hapana? Samweli: ni kama wamaasai lakini jamii, yao ni kabila lao ni tofauti Jan: kwahiyo mlikuwa na mawasiliano gani nao? Samweli: wale walikuwa tunajaribu kufanya nao biashara kidogo na wao, walikuwa wanapata marafiki na baadhi ya waikoma, wale wakoma walikuwa wawindaji sana, walikuwa wanakutana kwa mawindo, sasa wakishakutana kwa mawindo basi wanafanyiana urafiki sasa wanaweza wakawakaribisha wakasema njooni nyumbani basi wanakuja, lakini walipokuwa wanakuja walikuwa wanakuja na biashara ya kuuziana meno ya tembo, ndio wa Ikoma walikuwa wanakata wanachezea ngoma halafu na hizi ngozi ya simba, simba mwenye manyoya makubwa, walikuwa wanakuja wanatuuzia labda tunawapa mbuzi moja au wawili ndio biashara waliokuwa wanatufanyia Jan: haha wao walikuwa wanafuga mbuzi? George: {kilugha} Samweli: wale mbuzi walikuwa wanakula, mbuzi wane, watano Jan: sio kwamba wanafuga? Samweli: hapana, maisha yao ilikuwa porini porini tu, kuwinda tu, makambi ya kuwinda porini Jan: na mliona jamaa yao au ni wanaume tu mnawaona? Samweli : mimi sikuwahi kuona wanawake isipokuwa niliwahi kuona wanaume tu huko mzee moja tulikuwa jirani naye, alikuwa rafiki nilipokuwa mdogo wakaja yule mzee akamchinjia mbuzi George: {kilugha} Samweli: wakaja kwa mzee moja walikuwa kama wane au watano, akawachinjia mbuzi wakala basi labda wanaleta vile vitu wanauza wanarudi tena porini Jan: wao walikuwa wanakaa wapi? George: porini, kwenye mbuga mbuga Jan: walikuwa na sehemu yao maalum au? A: walikuwa wanakaa kwenye majabari, Loliondo huko kwenye majabari mpaka sasa wanaita waasi, sasa majabari hayo yako kwenye hifadhi sasa, sasa hivi hawapo Jan: hawapo kwenye hifadhi tena? A: wamehamia kwenye sehemu za wamaasai Jan: na nyumba zao zilifanana na nini au hamkuwahi kuona? A: majabari Jan: ambayo ni kama nyasi au? George: mawe Jan: mawe mawe haha George: kama jiwe kama hilo ndio walikuwa wanakaa, wanatengeza pale Jan: na hakuna ukoo wa Ikoma ambao kwa asili yao wametokana na waasi zamani hakuna? George: hakuna Jan: haha walikuwa tofauti nao kabisa tangu zamani? A: eeh walikuwa tofauti Jan: kama wagikwe? Samweli: aah wagikwe ni wa Ikoma, ni kusema tu ni waasi Jan: mmh hii kusema tu? A: ni kusema tu Jan: ni maneno tu? George: {kilugha} A: ni kwasababu gani wale watu nao milango hii ilikuwa milango kuliko wa Ikoma wengine, wagaikwe na mrundi walikuwa ni wawindaji sana kuliko wa Ikoma wengine kwahiyo wao ndio maana nimesema wagaikwe walikuwa wanapenda sana kuwinda ndio wakaanza kufanya urafiki nao, maana walikuwa wanakutana porini wanashikana urafiki basi kama wana ile meno ya tembo au ngozi ya simba basi wanakuja kuwauzia Jan: kwahiyo wakaanza kujitapia tu kwamba mimi ni mwaasi? A: eeh mimi ni mwaasi kutokana na ile ushujaa wa kuwinda au kuua wale matembo na kuua wale masimba basi wakawa hivyo Jan: haha na hawa wagaikwe wa Ikoma wana ukoo na wagikwe wanata au ni kitu tofauti maana naona ukoo zina kila kama Mwanchu unapata kwa Nata unapata wa Ikoma, kwa wagaikwe unapata sehemu zote mbili? Samweli: wagaikwe wanata jamii yao wana wa Ikoma asili George: wanata ni jamii ya wa Ikizu {kilugha} Jan: kwahiyo ikatokeaje kwamba hivi jina la ukoo inafanana Mwancha, gaikwe kila sehemu unaipatapata A: hata kurya wanapatikana George: hiyo inaonekana kwamba labda sehemu za huko nyuma huko inawezekana watu hao walikuwa wa aina moja kwasababu ukienda hata kurya unakuta wako waeregi, warachi vilevile wapo, wanchage, wagikwe A: kwahiyo inawezekana miaka nyuma zile koo zilikuwa zipo pamoja Jan: haha na mtu ambaye ni muikoma anatambua mtu wa ukoo wa jina ile ukuryani kama ni jamaa yake au hatambui hivyo? George: si rahisi kwavile ni mbali Jan: kwahiyo akienda kuhemea huko ukuryani anaweza kusema wewe ni jamaa wangu? George: eeh zamani walipokuwa wanakwena kuenea walikuwa wanachukua urafiki kwa njia hiyo Jan: kwa njia hiyo ya kuona ukoo? George: kwa njia hiyo sisi tunaenda kwao kwahiyo wanasema inchage kwahiyo inchage kama ni chungu {kilugha} Jan: na walikaribishwa vizuri? George: eeh Jan: haha ukisema mimi nimetoka ukoo Fulani ninafanana yako? George: eeh Jan: sisi ndugu George: hata hao wanaosikia waeregi ndio walikubali wao A: unakaribishwa vizuri sana Jan: wanakupa chakula bure? George: eeh walikuwa wanapata chakula, ni hali ya sasa imeleta shida lakini kutokea huko nyuma kwenye chakula ulikuwa unapewa chakula, na unapewa kingine zaidi ya kile ulichonunua Jan: haha kwahiyo ukienda kuhemea unachagua sasa naenda kwa yule ambaye unajua ana ukoo na mimi? A: tukienda kule labda sisi watu watano, na huyu ana rafiki yake sasa tunakwenda kwa yule rafikitukishafika pale huyu anatutambulisha, kuna chakula labda ya kununua, mnasambaa mnaenda kununua sasa hapo hapo tena sisi tunapata marafiki Jan: haha kwahiyo urafiki ni nzito kuliko ukoo? A: eeh ukishafanya urafiki mwisho wake unakuja kujitambulisha sasa unasahu huyu ni mtu wa kwetu George: wakati ya wale mliokwenda mkishafika kule ukisambaa kwenye kijiji sasa wanajua wageni wamekuja kwa Fulani, watu wanapokuja kuwatizama anasema wewe utakuwa rafiki yangu njoo twende kwangu, ndivyo urafiki ulivyokuwa unasambaa Jan: haha kumbe na ile ukoo na Sonjo bado ipo au hii ni ya zamani sana? Samweli: ni ya zamani lakini uhusiano wetu ni mazuri sana mpaka sasa ukifika kule wanaona kama ni mtu wa nyumbani, na msonjo akija huku unamwona ni kama mtu wa nyumbani Jan: mmh na ni kama ile ya ukoo ambayo ni mbali sana lakini bado unatambuana kidogo? George: eeh tunatambuana, wanasema ni wa kwetu hawa A: wanasema tulitokea huko , na wao wanasema hawa ni ndgugu zetu walitoka kwetu kwahiyo bado tunatambuana George: na ukifika pale kuna alama hapa, ukifika hapo kama wewe ni wa huku wanakuuliza hebu tuone alama yako, unatoa nguo na wanasema ni wa kwetu, hiyo alama ndio wanaona Jan: na bado watoto wadogo wanapata? George: eeh kwa sasa hivi sio rahisi, watoto wetu hawa wameacha, maana ile ilikuwa ni lazima kwamba kila mtoto anapozaliwa anapokuwa labda anaugua hata kama hakuugua lazima utoe hiyo nyama, walikuwa wanasema kuna nyama hapa ya mafuta, lakini sasa hivi utalaam ambao umeingia wanasema si hiyo inayosababisha ni kitu kingine Jan: haha George: elimu imeanza kuingia Jan: na ile njaa kubwa ambao watu walienda ndipo walipata Machaba ni ile ya vita ya magoro hata kabla ya hiyo? A: aah hiyo historia ya Machaba ni mbali George: ilikuwa ni kabla na hata wakati huo walipokuwa wanapata njaa hiyo sana inabidi wafanye mitambiko ya kuwakutanisha hawa Machaba kwahiyo ni kabla, walikuwa wanasema watu walikuwa ni wachache sana ambao walikuwa wachache walikuwa wa Isenye wa waikoma sasa wakapatikana waende kutafuta ramli na uganga ili waje kuongezeka wasaidiwe ndio sasa wakaenda huko crater Ngorongoro kupita huko sehemu za Manyara Jan: kwa wataturu? George: eeh kwa wataturu ndio wanasema mtaturu, jina Machaba ya mtaturu ndio aliowapa ndio akaitwa Machaba Jan: lakini ilikuwa watu wakati wa njaa walienda kupata Machaba? George: eeh ndio baada ya shida kubwa sana ikabidi waende Jan: lakini ile geti ya Magoro walikuwa wanatumia Machaba? George: eeh walikuwa wanatumia Machaba, si yalikuwa majina mawili wanaita Ngorisa na Rogoro sasa wanayakutanisha wanayaomba walifanya kama mitambiko ya kuwaomba kwamba tunawakutanisha mme na mke sasa mtusaidie tumepata tabu, labda wapate mvua chakula, ndio imani yao Jan: kwahiyo kila mara walipopata njaa wakafanya hii mitambiko? George: wakafanya hii mitambiko na hata wakati ambao hakuna njaa wazee walikuwa wanasema tumechukua mtu tumewakutanisha sasa Jan: haha pia walikuwa na mgimba wengine ambao walienda nao wakipata? George: wagimba walikuwa ni hao wataturu, wa Ikoma hawakuwa na mgimba Jan: na wataturu walikuwa wanakaa wapi? George: wengine walikuwa wanakaa zamani sana walikuwa wanakaa hapo milima hii ilikuwa inaitwa Nyangi Jan: haha George: alikuwa mtaturu moja alikuwa anaitwa Zambarero anakaa hapo Jan: alikuwa mgimba? George: eeh alikuwa mgimba mganga, nabii yao, kwa lugha nzuri alikuwa nabii yao alikuwa anatabiri mambo yote, mambo ya biashara au vita Jan: ilikuwa wakati gani ambayo alikuwepo? George: eeeh# A: miaka ya nyuma Jan: wakati wa babu? George: hiyo ilikuwa kwenye, wakati wa babu alikuwepo mwingine lakini Zambareko ilikuwa wakati wa mkoloni miaka ya mia tisa na moja au na mbili na tano kitu kama hicho, ndio mjerumani alikuwa anawaharakisha wafanye kazi sasa walikwenda kumwambia kwamba tumekuja kwako tumepata tabu sana na wajerumani wanatulazimisha kufanya kazi sasa tumekuja kuomba dawa Jan: haha George: ili tusifanye kazi, mjerumani amekuwa mkali {kilugha} sasa akaenda akawaambia hivi akawaambia mmekuja kutafuta dawa eeh nitawapa dawa lakini ngoja niwaambie dawa kubwa dawa kubwa muende mfanye kazi, mkifanya kazi mtaelewana lakini msipofanya kazi hakuna dawa, dawa ni kazi A: basi wakaja wakajitolea wakaja wakafanya kazi Jan: kumbe.. {END OF SIDE A} {SIDE B} Samweli: wanataka wakate miti, wabebe wajenge Jan: mmh Samweli: sasa wanasema tutafute dawa tusijenge George: wakati huo walikuwa wanakwenda kutafuta miti, miti mingine ilitolewa mto Warangi iko mto mrefu {kilugha} Jan: aah kumbe kwahiyo uhusiano na wataturu ilikuwa nzuri sana? George: eeh wataturu na wa ikoma aah sana Jan: ni kama baba? George: eeh ndio ni marafiki, hata ulikuwa unaenda pale unataka hata azungumze unamsogelea azungumze mate yake wanaruka yanaporomoka mengine anakutemea, kwahiyo tulikuwa tunawaabudu Jan: haha#hata mlipokuwa nay owe kwa wamaasai waliwasaidia George: eeh dawa zilikuwa zinasaidia, hata ile mito tunayosikia kwamba ni ya mchana waliitabiri kwamba itakuwepo wanasema walikwenda kwa wabiha muende mjiandae mtengeneze mishale kila mtu vita ipo na wanasema wamaasai watakuja kuchukua ng#ombe mchana Jan: eeh George: ndio aliwatabiria Jan: na walikuwa wanakaa sehemu ile tu ambayo ulitaja au sehemu nyingine pia? George: wa? Jan: wataturu walikaa? George: milima ya nyangi Jan: kuna sehemu nyingine? George: baadaye wakavuka mto wakawa ng#ambo huko sehemu za Sibora huko eeh walikaa hapo baadaye ndio wakaendelea kuhama kwenda {kilugha] Samweli; {kilugha} Jan: kuna sehemu ambazo kama lisambwa ambayo ni muhimu kwa wa Ikoma ambao bado wanaenda kutambikia pale, ni kama sehemu gani au ambao watu bado wanakumbuka site zile za muhimu muhimu ya kutambikia? Samweli: eeh#mahali kama Maserebati George: {kilugha} Jan: na Marishi George: na warangi na Marishi Jan: mmh nini imetokea huko ambao bado wanakumbuka? George: wao wanasema asili yao walikuwepo huko wa kwao kule kwao walipokuwa huko ndio wakaja wakashambuliwa na hawa watu wakawauwa wakahama hapo wakawasambaza, wanakwenda pale wanachinja ng#ombe wanawinda wanasherekea George: walikuwa wanaomba hata kibali Samweli: hata miaka hii ya karibuni walikuwepo, kuja themanini au tisini Jan: kuna sehemu maaalum na kaburi na nini? Samweli: eeh George: {kilugha} Jan: haha kuna wazee ambao bado wanakumbuka walienda wapi? Samweli: eeh yupo mdogo wangu ambaye alikwenda, yuko Robanda Jan: aah yuko robanda hata anaweza akaenda na sisi? Samweli: eeh mnaweza mkaenda pale, mnapata kibali Jan: na kuna sehemu nyingine ambayo ni maalum? Samweli: wa Ikoma wote wana mahala, na baadaye kila mlango ina mahala pake kwa kuabudu, waikumare, wamwancha eeh Jan: kwahiyo ni wapi ambao kila.. Samweli: abarachi {kilugha} Jan: wanaenda wapi? Samweli: kuna mlima Robanda, mlima huo mkono wa kushoto Jan: inaitwaje? Samweli: Nyabati ndio walikuwa wanakwenda, kuna sehemu wale warachi walikuwa wanaabudu nyoka chafu ilikuwa inakaa hapo, sasa walikuwa wakipata shida ule mlango ule unakwenda unachukua mbuzi mweupe dume basi wanapandisha kule na akina mama wanachukua kuni wanachukua na chakula wanapanda wanakwenda wanashinda pale siku nzima, wanachinja yule mbuzi pale wanapika chakula pale wanakula sasa labda jioni labda saa kumi ndio wanateremka sasa George: eeh na wakifik pale wakikaribia wanavua viatu Samweli: kama hapa na nyumba ile basi wanavua viatu, sasa wanakwenda wanakaa wanachinja yule mbuzi na akina mama wanapika George: halafu wanaenda watu watakaoenda pale ni wale watakatifu hasa Samweli: sio watu wenye dhambi George: kama wewe umekosa karibuni wewe huwezi kwenda, halafu kama mama yuko mwezini au akina mama wote ambao wanajua wako hivyo hawaendi Jan: mmh sawasawa George: maana ana madhambi, lazima awe kulikuwa na sehemu moja inaitwa egesima yani kisima, chemchem Fulani wanasema kwamba kuna Kumare anakaa pale, sasa walikuwa wanakwenda kuabudu hapo hata wakati mvua zimekosekana wanakwenda pale, wanachimba, na watu wanaenda pale wa aina hiyo, wakikaribia pale wanavua viatu, halafu wanajipeleleza nani ambaye hali yake si nzuri, mwenye makosa makosa hatakiwi Jan: aah kumbe George: wakienda wasipofaulu siku hiyo wakienda labda kama mvua haiwezi kunyesha wanajiuliza nani alikuwa mbaya kule, alikuwa na shida ambaye anasababisha maombi yetu yasisisike eeh kwahiyo ilikuwa ni mtakaso wa hali ya juu Jan: mmh kumbe sawasawa na hizi site nyingi ya hizo ipo nje ya park au iko ndani? George: sehemu hizi tunazozungumza za mwisho hizi iko labda hii ya huku juu, yam lima ipo hapo kijijini Samweli: nah ii nyingine ya kisima hii sina hakika kama ipo ndani George: aah ipo ndani ya game reserve Jan: na huko Banagi ina lisambwa yake au hii ilikuwa? Samweli: isipokuwa hii tunayosema iko chini ya national park George: {kilugha} Samweli: {kilugha] George: kuna sehemu moja vilevile ilikuwa inaitwa embe na kamlima Fulani ilikuwa inaitwa ebo walikuwa wanakaa Jan: iko wapi? George: iko chini mwa Robanda, national park Samweli: {kilugha} George: {kilugha} Jan: kwahiyo wa Ikoma nah ii game pamoja na hii national park walikuwa na uhusiano gani? Samweli: hao mara ya kwanza watu walionza kuingia pale ni hawa wananyama hawa wa game George: game ndio ilianza Jan: na ilikuwa shamba la bibi? George: eeh game ndio ilikuwa, ndio ilikuwa inakaa Banagi wanasema inachunga shamba la bibi Samweli: watu walioanza kuandikwa kazi ni wa Ikoma, ndio walikuwa askari ndio walikuwa karibu Jan: kwahiyo uhusiano ulikuwa mbaya au mzuri? Samweli: ulikuwa mzuri tu haukuwa mbaya sana, hawakuwa wakali zaidi Jan: si waliwazuia msiwinde? George: haha walikuwa wanazuia wasiingie kwenye shamba la bibi Jan: aah ok George: huko ndani tulikuwa tunawinda Jan: haha kwahiyo hawana shida kama unawinda huko? George: hawana shida ili mradi usiingie kwenye shamba la bibi Jan: ukiwaona unabeba nyama nje ya game? George: aah hamna shida Jan: aah George: wao si wanakaa banagi wala hawaji kutafuta watu, ndio walikuwa wanakatalia shamba la bibi Jan: aah George: unajua hili shamba la bibi limeanza baada ya muingereza kutawala Samweli: eeh ilikuwa Ritoya George: na aliyetawala aliyekuwa queen ni nani? Jan: aah queen George: kingi mke wake anaitwa nani? Jan: si ni queen George: siyo ilikuwa shamba la queen Jan: sawa kwahiyo wakati walianza kuzuia watu wasiwinde kabisa ni kipindi gani? George: ni miaka hii ya karibuni Jan: wakati wa national park ilipoanza? Samweli: {kilugha} wakati tunaanza kusogeza mipaka sasa national park inaanza kuingia George: national park ilianza kuingia kwenye mwaka hamsini, hamsini na mojan a mbili tulipoanza kudai uhuru sasa ndio wakataka kupanua mipaka sasa wakati huo ndio tulikuwa na madiwani sasa chief Nyahoche maana miaka ya hamsini na sita n asaba na nane hapo ndio walikuwa wanakuja sasa tunakumbuka alikuja judge Wambura na mhindi moja tukatoka pale mpaka mangwesi sasa wanadai kuongeza mpaka ndio tukakubaliana sasa wakatoka mpaka kwa Warangi tukaja Bomoko Samweli: {kilugha} George: {kilugha} ni hatari {kilugha} ni hatari ilikuwa Samweli: sitini na sita Jan: sitini na sita ikafanyaje? George: aah hiyo ni ya hapa Samweli: walikuja national park wakalima hapa kwenye mashamba George: aah walikuja ile sehemu waliona kwamba wakati wa utawala wa mwalimu Nyerere wanakaa pale national park hawalimi, wake zao hawalimi wakasema waje tuwape shamba hapa walime ili wapate chakula wavune wapereke huko kwao Jan: aaah George: kule Soronera Jan: haha Samweli: baadaye wakaona kazi mbili kulima na kazi ya kuchunga wanyama watashindwa wakachagua ya wanyama, wakalima mwaka mmoja tu Jan: haha kumbe kwahiyo baada ya park kuuingia wakaanza kuzuia watu wasiwinde? George: ndio sasa park ilipoingia pale kwenye miaka hiyo tunayoyasema basi game reserve nayo ikabadilika ikawa ni ndani ya wananchi sasa, mmh game reserve sasa wakaanza kukatalia wanyama hata kwenye national park haingii kwenye miji kutafuta wanyama lakini game reserve inaingia kwenye miji kwasababu wanakaa karibu na raia maanake ni kwamba wananchi wamekaa kwenye game reserve Jan: haha mnavyoona sasa hivi hii watu wa huko hifadhi wameanza kuwa na uhusiano mzuri na watu au bado ni kama wanagombana nao? George: bado mahusiano yao ni kidogo Samweli: ingawa yapo kiasi lakini ni kidogo, lakini wanawapa msaada na hospitali wamewajengea George: lakini bado mahusiano si kamili sana Samweli: wanawafinya sana wananchi, maeneo yamefinywa yamekuwa madogo sana hata wananchi hawapanuki George: sasa kinacholeta mahusiano kuwa mabaya ni nchi, wanawabana sana, ile kuhama ya zamani wa Ikoma walikuwa wanahamahama sasa imeisha sasa hii ndio wanachukia sana Samweli: sasa huwezi kwenda sehemu nyingine sasa hata kama unapenda kusogea sasa huwezi wanasema hapa ndio mpaka sasa huwezi kuja hapa na wewe labda wewe unapenda kusogea na kufunga mifugo na kulima mashamba wanasema aah hapa huwezi kulima na hapa huwezi kufunga mifugo sasa mnabanana tu sasa hiyo wananchi hawapendi, hata pale Robanda ni pafinyu sana, watu wanabanana tu Jan: na huko Robanda kuna hii nasikia sengo, safari kuna hawa makampuni ya nje wanakuja na watalii hii ni mabo mazuri kwa wa Ikoma au inaharibu zaidi? George: ni kwamba kwa makutano ya sasa waliyo nayo kama itakuwa hivyo yatakuwa mazuri lakini kuna mashaka kama itaendelea kuwa mazuri maana inawezekana baadaye maana mtu kuingia ni rahisi, mkataba wanasema ni muda mfupi lakini inawezekana wakaona utamu wakaongeza baadaye wakachukua mipaka, hata JD inaanza kuleta utata Nata kwasababu waliwapa maneno ya haraka haraka na nini watu wakafikiri ni kweli wakaandishikana mkataba ya miaka tisini na tisa, sasa wamekuja kugundua tumeweka mkataba sasa watoto wetu watakuwa wanaishi wapi eeh kwahiyo inaanza kuleta utata Jan: kwahiyo wakawapa mkataba ya miaka tisini na tisa bila kuwaambia watu wazi? George: eeh pale JD pila kuwaelemisha watu, waliwahidi watawatengenezea hiki, watawapa hiki, unajua mtu kama anataka kuingia wewe kama ni masikini huna chochote anaweza akakwambia kila siku nitakuwa nakuletea kilo ya sukari ukafikiri ni kweli ukasaini mkataba ukajifunga, sasa wanata wameanza kusema na barabara hii ya huku iame sasa inaleta shida, sasa hivi wako kwenye shida hawaelewani ndio maana yule mzungu kutoelewana na yule wa kwanza ndiyo akahama akauza hiyo akamuuzia huyu Jan: na eneo ni kubwa? George: eeh eneo ni kubwa Samweli: lakini kulingana na eneo aliyokuwa amepewa yule sasa huyu tena anataka achukue sehemu ya game tena, sasa hii imeleta ukorofi George: bado anaona ni ndogo anataka apanue sasa hiyo na wanata wanasema hapana, hiyo inaleta shida Jan: mmh na hawa wa Robanda wako vilevile au? George: hata wa Robanda wako kwenye hali hiyohiyo ingawa haijajitokeza lakini mashaka yapo, watu wanaanza kuhoji maswali Samweli: maana maeneo yale pale yalikuwa ni miji Jan: lakini mpaka sasa wanakaa kama jirani mwema? George: eeh wale sasa hawana shida Jan: hawana shida? George: lakini kuna mashaka Jan: ya mbali? Samweli: kwasababu watu, hata Robanda yenyewe hasa miaka ya kuanzia miaka ya sitini na tatu ilikuwa ni kidogo sasa hivi imeeanza kupanuka, watu wanaleta ukorofi watu wanataka kujenga wanataka kulima sasa ukiwaambia waondoke na mkataba wake ule haujaisha si watagombana Jan: eeh ndio watagombana Samweli: eeh Jan: na nyinyi mnavyoona hii wanyama pori wangeisha bila kuhifadhiwa na hawa wa game au haina shida? Samweli: kwa sasa tunaona kuna hatari game kuwepo inasaidia na national park inasaidia maana sasa hivi wanyama wanaingia kwenye biashara George: tofauti na wa Ikoma wa zamani tulikuwa tunawinda ya mboga tu Samweli: tunapata nyama kidogo, labda nyama kilo ishirini thelathini unauza tu kwa kitu kidogo lakini sasa hivi wanafanya magunia na lori wanauza mpaka Kenya, sasa unauza hata magunia kumi sasa ni hatari wanyama kuisha kwahiyo hilo tuliona ni zuri maana bila hilo wanyama wataisha# Jan: mmh lakini watu ambao wako hapa wangekuwa na uhuru wa kuwinda hata kidogo au itakuwa inaisha kabisa? Samweli: sisi uwindaji wetu haikuwa na zana kali kama ya saa hivi uwindaji wa mishale nah ii ya kuchimba shimo unaua wanyama watatu wane au watano lakini sasa unakuta watu wameua wanyama hata thelathini mtu anakwenda anakaa wiki moja au wiki mbili watu wengi zaidi ya ishirini wanaua wanyama wengi sana sasa ukifanya kwa muda wa miaka mingi wanyama watakwisha kwahiyo hiyo tunaona hiyo ni nzuri sana kwasababu sasa hivi spidi ya kuwinda ni kali sana Jan: wangeweza kuzuia ile ya biashara na kuacha watu wa kawaida Samweli: eeh watu wa kawaida wanapata mboga Jan: haha lakini hii kwa leo haipo ya kwenda kupata mboga wako? Samweli: haipo wanakataa kabisa isipokuwa kama Robanda pale ndio kuna wanyama wachache George: wanakuja kuuzia wananchi Samweli: wanawauzi wananchi George: {kilugha} Jan: nyie mna ushauri gani katika hii maneno ya uwindaji? Samweli: tulikuwa tunafikiri game wangepatia wananchi wawe wanapata mboga kwasababu sisi tulishazoea, sisi ni wawindaji tangu asilia sasa tulikuwa tunafikiri game wangetupa nafasi huwa tunapata mboga, sisi tunapenda mboga za porini Jan: kuwinda wenyewe Samweli: eeh kuwinda wenyewe Jan: na upinde au lazima iwe bunduki? Samweli: hata kwa bunduki, siku hizi watu wengi wana bunduki, tunapata nyama za porini cha mboga hiyo ingekuwa ni vizuri lakini kuzuia kabisa kabisa tutakuwa tumepoteza kidogo tunabanwa sana na mboga tunapenda, sasa kila siku tutakula mboga za majani vilevile lakini kama majira haya mboga zinapatikana tungeshauri iwe hivyo, lakini kukataa kabisa kabisa tulishazoea tangu babu zetu tutakuwa kidogo tunanyimwa uhuru George: halafu vilevile kuongezea hilo ni kwamba wengine wanaotuzia kuingia national park, sisi kama wenyeji wa hapa turuhusiwe kuingia kule maana ndio sehemu yetu ya asili sasa wanapotuzuia tusiingie mpaka tulipe malipo basi wanatuumiza, sisi ndio wenyeji wa hapa sasa tunafaidika na nini kama wenyeji wa hapa wa asili ya hapa tunafaidika na nini Jan: eeh ndiyo Samweli: tumebanwa kidogo George: tunaingia tunapatembelea, kama wenyeji wa Ngorongoro hawalipi kitu chochote wanaingia tu Jan: aah wanakaa ndani George: wanakaa ndani Jan: unaposema kwamba asili yenu ni uwindaji ni pamoja na kilimo na ufugaji au hii ilitangulia? George: vyote vitatu Samweli: zinakwenda kwa majira, uwindaji tunapenda kuwinda mwezi wa sita mpaka mwezi wa kumi na moja wanyama wanaweza kutoweka kabisa wanaenda mashariki sisi tunabaki kulima na mifugo, tunakuwa na kazi mbili kulima na kufuga, kwahiyo tunakwenda kwa majira, mpaka mwezi wa sita tena, mwezi wa tatu tunakoma kulima sasa tunafuga na tunavuna ndio sasa ndio tunaanza kulima sasa, kwahiyo ile ni ya muda, uwindaji ni yamuda lakini kilimo nacho ni cha muda vilevile lakini ufugani ndio muda wote Jan: na mashamba ya kilimo yalikuwa karibu na nyumba au ni mbali? Samweli: watu wanalima mbali, tulikuwa tunalima mbali zamani, zamani tulikuwa tunatoka Robanda pale tunakwenda kulima kule mto wa rangi na wengine wanakuja kulima Foti na wengine wanakwena mashariki George: tulikuwa tunaweza kwenda kulima kilomita kumi mpaka kumi na tano mpaka ishirini Samweli: na watu wanahamia kule wanajenga nyumba hukohuko wanakaa mpaka wanavuna Jan: kwanini waliamua kulima mbali sana? Samweli: walikuwa wanategea mvua eeh kule# {THE END OF TAPE # 261, DONE BY NYAMUSI MAGATTI, AUGUST 2009}

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Field Notes

George Wambura Gehamba, Morotonga, 21 August 2003 Samueli Muya Mongita, Morotonga, 21 August 2003 Migrant labor - many youth left but up to the youth if you go or not for migrant labor. if parent's didn't have cattle or had no daughters you had to go for cattle. - when he got 4 kids came back. took care of parents. father didn't go out for work. - fathers traded in Sukuma, with hunting products. in June during the dry season went to hunt. took meat and tails to Sukuma and got goats or calves. even cows - work it out between people who went together to Sukuma, tobacco from Sukuma. others from our generation even went to Sukuma to trade. - grandfathers were farmers, millet and sorghum. really did a lot of farming. others were lazy. if you need food you bring livestock to trade - grandfathers were around when the Germans came, was a little boy. - people were caught by the Watemi to go work on the fort Ikoma, forced labor. they were wakali sana. no comon language. Famine - grandmother cut her foot off in this hunger. was called Njaa ya Miguu. They went to Sukuma for food. they moved there, some stayed. others came home - sold children for food. brides. not yet tails to trade, udodi, figured that out when they went to get food. tails were used for dances. - not as many cattle, maybe now more goats then cattle. fathers and grandfathers got rich from farming. Army and Police work, migrant labor - polic and army, so many Mara peoples, why? strong and tough. not lazy. strong. the white people liked them. strong bodies from farming, huntiing. - their sons have gone into the army too. - now other regions are joining too. - some went to the mines. father's generation mostly, some of theirs. - people went to Magadi Soda too. older than us, and to Nairobi. work was available. - got wealth then came home - vijana of today can't get jobs. not like before. - were paid very little, 1956 6/=month. 2/- for a goat. 1957 60/- a month for wages in police/army. posho for police was 91/- or 102/-. could buy three cows. Chiefs - TANU membership up to Independence. police were not allowed to join CCM. gave TANU dues. Youth League too. - 1955 Nyerere came to speak at Robanda. Chief Nyahocha. - Chief Nyambehu when children, then Machaba Nyambeho. 1945 had to leave for bad behavior. next chief was Marasi Mochen, died after one year. - then next chief was Machaba Marasi. he until Independence. Nyerere came to Robanda. - First Ikoma chief in German times, Mutoni. germans came and asked for name of the chief. People voted for him. all people sitting behind the one they wanted. - chiefs were liked by the people, because they chose them. the chief brought together colonial and people Cassava and famine - chief called people when he got an order. People said that it would not grow in Robanda. told the colonial govt. but still forced them. the people planted it "ovyo" - 1930. 1945 cassava brought. had to plant it. each head man for this people. but it didn't work. animals ran across it. - famine, went to get food in other places where they farmed cassava. - they also ate wild plants, "eketando" and honey, from the trees. or put in hives. - hunting was what you did when there was hunger. went to Ikizu to trade dry meat. - they dug holes for hunting, brought animals across them. whole village came to harvest the meat. "rikoro" "obwina" used some of the meat but put in storage ghala dried - famines 1943-47, 4 years without crop. That is when they all left Robanda. went to Ikizu and Sukuma - 1945 the DC came to Robanda and asked teacher why no kids were there. if I bring food will they come back to school? said yes. brought a lorry of cassava for kids - but it didn't help much. in 1946 the Indians brought flour to sell "regregu" corn flour. Livestock were sold to buy it. Settlement sites - Murago, west of Robanda where the Grumeti and Orangi Rivers meet. Bongirate site. in the park - Masaka is a is south of Robanda, a rumarancha site - Bisurura is west of Robanda towards Seronera, a Hikumari Rumarancha site out of the park. - SE is Rumarancha. Saye of Masase. NE of Robanda is Maharera. SW of Robanda is Bongirate. inside the park or the game reserve. - the game reserve left Ikoma with very little territory. - the game did not throw them out. When they moved they took the area for game reserve. - moved out by forced from Murago, this was the only place 1967-8 only a few were left there anyway - the boundary with Maasai is the Orangi River in the South near Banagi. Boundary was Arikori but before that the Orangi river. - Banagi was the Abakubura age set Rumarancha.(1916?) Maasai - Maasai raids. came to get cows. came at night. lots of them came. took from lots of homes in one night. - the Ikoma were killed off because of the the Maasai. burned their houses. killed people, women and children. - the yowe sounded. women and children hide in bush but if the Maasai find them hiding in the grass they kill them - Maasai came once in the day time. wanted to run the Ikoma out altogether for the last time. before these men were born. grandfathers time. 1890s-1900? - was even before grandfather, he was told about it. But Ikoma won the battle, they didn't come after that for awhile and then only at night to raid. - it was called "Vita ya Mchana" before the Germans came, 19th century. - the Germans did not fight the Maasai, just sat there. built there because it was between their posts. - the Nata were on the other side. Issenye were there too. - during hunger times for the Maasai they would increase their raiding. only wanted cattle. Abaasi - wandorobo, are like the Maasai. but different. now live with the Maasai. traded with them. had friendships with them. met them on the hunt and made friends - the invited these friends to come to their homes. they would bring ivory to trade.l wanted them to make bracelets. gave them goats for ivory. they ate the goats, not herded - never saw any Aasi wives. - their family had a friend of Aasi, a man, father killed a goat for him, there were 4 or 5 of them who came. ate at their house. "majambali" went to Loliondo. lived in caves. - the Gaikwe were hunters more than others also the Himurumbe. They had more friendships with the Aasi., - courage. praise names Clans and Famine - the clan names not the same between tribes. maybe long ago they were together even in Kuria there are Iregi. Rache. Gaikwe. are there - when they went to hemea they would use the clan names to get food. Iregi or Hikumari even they would give you food. now people don't help each other out - to hemea people would go as a group of five or so. one would have a friend to start with. that person would tell them where to go to get food. make new friends. - or people from that village see the people who came to hemea and come and choose them and say come with me you will be my friend. - still friends with Sonjo. we are one. one history. ntemi scars. show it to them and are family. had to do it. but do not scar the children anymore. was done for health - Famine - the agecha ya magoro. used the machaba so the machaba must have come before that. Machaba got because they asked to multiply and have more people - they went to Ngorongoro for the machaba, to a taturu prophet. bring the tusks together to get blessings, man and wife tusks. for famine times. - the Wataturu were the rainmakers. lived in the Nyangi mountains. Ft. Ikoma area. Gambareku was a great rainmaker and a prophet. German times 1901-5? - they asked him to help them get free of German forced labor. to keep them from doing work for Germans. - he said that they medicine was to go work for them, then they will understand that medicine is work - they took trees from the Orangi River very tall for uilding the fort. - Wataturu were friends. spit on the Ikoma for blessing. gave medicines for chasing away the Maasai. Prophesized the Battle of the Day. - Wataturu lived across the Grumeti River at Sibora. then on west. - the Serebati at Kyamarishi Mountain. came from there. the mbilikimo fought with them there. so they had to run away, the Serebati. - now need park permit to go there to see the graves - all Ikoma worship the machaba. each clan has own place to worship. - Rache on the Ng'abati mountain near Robanda. there is a python, chato, there in a hole. take him a white goat and climb the mountain. eat the meat up there. - take off shoes when you go near. only the holy ones go up. if you have had a death recently or if you are menstruating. - The Hikumari go to Egesima Kumari. Kumari lives there, only the righteous can go there too. if it doesn't bring good things they asked who went there who shouldn't - Rache on Hembe Mountain south of Robanda, in SNP Park - Bwana Nyama the game control people. guarded Shamba la Bibi. at Banagi. gave them work as askaris. had good relations. could hunt outside of game areas. - they did not come after people in their own areas. - when the national park started in 1951, and then with independence it expanded its boundaries. chief and diwani 1956-8, wanted to expand from Orangi to Romokori - in 1966 the park came to farm in Mugumu, employees of the park to have their shambas. but they left it. - game reserve became part of villages, can't hunt there anymore. - still relations are tense. building schools for us. give help. have given us such little land though. are cramped. Ikoma are still upset about this. - each time they moved more land was taken and now they can't move back, no more moving anymore. can't go back. - people can't get land anymore Robanda is such a small place. - Sengo etc and tourism. still have doubts about it. they will not easily leave one they come. must be given a specific period. - VIP has started to bring problems, a 99 year lease. by telling people nice things will get what they want. people agree when they are happy and later regret. - the want to change the road and to get a bigger area. this one wants to get even more land. think it is small. the Nata will refuse. - Robanda has this danger too. still small. Sengo. can we later use that land? what happens when our population grows? - danger of animals disappearing. but this is because of commercial hunting, different from Ikoma hunting in the past. now it is with trucks and taken to Kenya. - this will kill off the animals. we didn't take so many as that. but now we can't hunt for our food anymore. they hunt to sell the meat. - advice for the government -- people need to get meat. but keeping people together is not good.. don't want them to stop hunting altogether. - can't even go into the park now. our land! we are constricted, kubanwa. should be able to go in and out when we want. Ngorongoro can do this., farming - hunting, farming and livestock all in their season. - farmed away from the home. all the way to the Orangi River. 15-20 km from home. went there during the wet season. - went to find farms in far away places, looking for rain areas. near the mountains. where it likes to rain. - lived on the mbuga. farmed the river valleys. the mbuga good for livestock, couldn't have them near the rivers, floods there. can get sick.* - buffalo hunters, resident herds. - fields in different places., each door would have their place to farm. move the fields after 3-4 years. weeds come in then - can have two different fields, near home or far away. - sorghum grows well in the river valleys, bonde. millet planted far away where there were fertile soils. flat place with a small hill. "rishegeri" soil - "amasegere" soil was the black soil, no sand, mbuga soil - people farmed it with a hand hoe. "ososero" - sand and black soil mixed for millet - "akondusi" black and red soil millet and seseme. pnated together with kunde. - sensa, the sesa farming not with matuta. matutas only in the 1950s since coming to Mugumu. sweet potatoes were there before but very little. - burning only prohibited recently. educated people say it is bad for the soil and trees. too much burning. - they burn in the park. so they can get through with their cars in th epark for roads to drive on. and to see poachers. - the hunters are not burning, the SNP are doing it. hunters was grass to hide in/.

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