Interview with Alexander Ogoche Ayo in Buturi

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Photograph of Alexander Ogoche Ayo at interview
Photograph of Alexander Ogoche Ayo at interview
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Title

Interview with Alexander Ogoche Ayo in Buturi

Creator

Alexander Ogoche Ayo, Jan Bender Shetler, Zedekia Oloo Siso

Contributor

Nyamusi Magatti (transcriber), Daniel Shetler (videographer)

Description

Alexander Ogoche Ayo talks about preserving the good traditions of the past and its importance for people's lives today. He describes the wars that were fought, migrations and the famines that led to new boundary formation when the colonial officers came and appointed chiefs. He describes the changes in conflict between groups and in leadership with the colonial government and then to independence.

Language
Luo
Swahili
Ethnicity
Turi
Sex

Male

Date Original

25 July 2007

City

Buturi

District
Rorya
Region
Mara
Country

Tanzania

Theme
Cultural Memory
Democracy and Diversity
Subject
Disease
Group names
Knowledge
Leaders
Migration
Relations with others
Original Format
Interview
Digital Format

video/mp4

Source

Jan Bender Shetler Collection, Goshen College

Publisher

Goshen College

Rights Management

Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International (CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)

Contributing Institution

Jan Bender Shetler; Goshen College; Matrix: Center for Digital Humanities and Social Sciences at Michigan State University

Biography

Alexander Ogoche is a black tail elder. He is the son of Ayo, son of Obunge, son of Waligi, son of Tegwa, son of Kegina, son of Onyango, son of Otieno Nditi, son of Mlowa. Mlowa had three, 4 children Miswa, Onyango, Ochieng, Otieno. The father of Mlowa was Ochieng, from Omolo. Alexander Ogoche went to Geita to work in the mines as a youth and then to other mines in Musoma. In WWII he was recruited and in1939 fought the Italians. In India and Rangoon, Burma he fought the Japanese and was there for three years. He was in company 29 brigade. Fighting for the Europeans was bad. Soldiers didn't get their share and were not paid their pension after. Alexander Ogoche was taught history by his father, who was taught by his father who was taught by his father. History was taught to children. But then the schools and the priests came from Nyegina and the children got Christian names. The Turi chief Odemba sent the children to school. Alexander had his education in the old ways because he couldn't go to school.

Transcript

* COMPLETE TRANSCRIPTION IN Swahili {INTERVIEW BETWEEN JAN AND SISO WITH ALEXANDRA OGOCHE} A: mimi ni Alexandra Ogoche Jan: Alexandra haha A: baba Ayu B: Ayu Jan: Ayu A: baba wa Ayu ni Obunge Jan: haha B: Obunge Jan: Obunge haha A: Obunge mtoto wa Waligi Jan:Waligi B: Waligi A:Waligi baba yake Tegwa B: Tegwa Jan: Tegwa haha basi A: Tegwa baba yake Kigina Jan: Kigina haha A: baba ya Kigina ni Onyango Jan: Onyango haha A: baba ya Onyango ni Otieno Jan: Otieno haha B: ndiye Otieno Nditi Jan: Nditi A: Otieno mtoto wa Mlowa Jan: sawa A: hapo ndio, watu wa Ingri yetu hapa ni watu wa B: Milowa A: Ine, wa Milowa na Milowa mtoto wa Ochieng#, baba yake Ochieng# Jan: sawa sawa kwahiyo kati ya watu hawa wa Walowa wewe ni mlango wa A: Milowa ndio baba yetu Jan: haha A: kwa watu wa tatu Jan: sawa A: ndio baba ya Miswa, baba ya Onyango, baba yangu na Ochieng watu wanne Jan: haha sawa B: baba ya Onyango, baba ya Miswa A: sasa we nyaro, Miswa na Onyango ni watoto wa Ochieng# Jan: mmh A: na Otieno ndiyo mtoto wa Milowa Jan: ooh sawa Miswa, Onyango A: baba yao ni Otieno na Otieno ndiyo mtoto wa Milowa ndiyo watu wa Ingri yetu hapa Jan: ok sawasawa A: hata Milowa baba yake Ochieng Jan: baba wa Milowa A: ni Ochieng# Jan: sawa kutoka wapi? A: baba wa Ochieng# Omolo Jan: ipo wapi A: hii yetu hapa Jan: hii? A: mimi bado nahesabu ukoo wa hapa Jan: ok sawasawa haya na katika ukoo wako ulikuwa na cheo fulani A: uanjua sasa naita ni Buturi Jan: Buturi sawasawa A: ndiyo mimi naonyesha wewe watu wa Buturi Jan: sawasawa A: bado hatujaingia pahali pengine Jan: sawa ok na labda useme kidogo katika maisha yako ulikuwa nini? A: hiyo hapo mimi nasimama tu hapo ndio watu wa Ingri yetu hapa Jan: haha A: kama wewe ulikuja hapa si unasema kwamba unakuja Buturi Jan: haha A: hawa ndio watu wa Buturi wanakwisha Jan: haha A: kama wewe unataka kujua kama sisi tulivyotoka Kenya mimi naendelea tu Jan: sawa A: lakini kama unataka watu wa Buturi peke yao ni hapo Jan: sawa B: sasa swali langu ni hivi kwako mimi najua kwamba, mimi nakuitaje wew ni baba yangu ama ni babu yangu A: tunavyoitana? B: eeeh A: in dhok liunda na B: mimi ni mtoto wa mjukuu wako A: koro kani idwaro kori B: sasa huyu alikuwa anauliza wewe kwanza ulifanya kazi gani tokea ulipozaliwa A: Mimi tangu utoto nilikwenda kazi huko Geita kazi ya #mine# Jan:ok A: ninafanya kazi ya #mine# ya michanga Jan: haha A: kutoka hapo unarudi hapa nyumbani Jan: haha A: tena narudi tena kwenye mine Kungu hapa ng#ambo hapa Musoma nafanyia kazi Jan: ni #mine# tena? A: eeh kutoka hapo mi arudi nyumbani hapa naoa Jan: haha A: kama nimeshaoa naenda kwa vita Jan: vita ya pili? A: eeh themanini na tisa ndiyo sisi tulipigana Jan: themanini na? A: si ile vita iliyoanza themanini na tisa B: elfu moja mia tisa thelathini na tisa Jan: thelathini na tisa, ok sawasawa A: eeh hiyo ndiyo vita ambayo mimi nilikwenda Jan: ulienda wapi? A: mimi kama nilifika huko nilipata watu wametangulia mbele wanakamata #talyam# na sisi tunaanza kupita baharini tunakwenda ng#ambo India Jan: haha A: tunafika mpaka Rangon Jan: Rangon India A: upande wa Japan Jan: Burma A: eeeh sisi tunakwenda mpaka Burma tunakamata watu wa Japanese Jan: haha A: tunamaliza vita hapo Jan: haha ulikaa kwa miaka mingapi A: tatu huko ng#ambo Jan: eeh ilikuwa ngumu? A: (laughing) ilikuwa mpaka ukamate adui kama umeshakamata basi unamaliza vita basi unarudi Jan: haha hii company yako iliitwaje? A: sisi ilikuwa Burgedia 29 ndio ilipita kusaidia ile forcé ambayo ilikuwa 28 burgedi Jan: mmh A: hivyo ndivyo inavyokwenda force 28 Burgedia inakwenda nyuma sisi tunaenda mbele Jan: lakini mlionaje kupiga vita kwa ajili ya wazungu A: tuliona vibaya sana kwa maana adui kama anatuona sisi na mzungu yeyé anafika kwanza kwa mzungu halafu wanapiga risasi. Ni kwa vita wazungu walishinda wazungu wanaanza kuchukua rangi nyeusi ndiyo wanapaka kwenye shingo na macho na kuwa weusi kam

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Field Notes

Interview #4 Alexander Ogoche Ayo With Zedekia Oloo Siso, Buturi, Ogoche’s house, 25 July 2007 Folder A DS 400024.WMA audio Video #4 and #5 Still photos of interview and man and his wife, wives afterwards Alexander Ochoche son of Aayo, son of Obunge, son of Waligi, son of Tegwa, son of Kegina, son of Onyango, son of Otieno Nditi, son of Mlowa. Mlowa had three, 4 children Miswa, Onyango, Ochieng, Otieno. Father of Mlowa was Ochieng. From Omolo. Siso asks whether he, Ogoche, is the generation of his grandfather or his father. He is the son of your grandfather. Life history – he went to Geita to work in the mines as a youth. Then other mines in Musoma. Then to WWII, 1939 fought the Italians and in India, Rangoon Burma fought the Japanese. Was there for three years. He was in company 29 brigade. Fighting for the wazungu was bad. Soldiers didn’t get their share. Not paid their pension after. Siso asks who was it that taught you history. Taught by father, who was taught by his father who was taught by his father. History taught to children. Then the schools and the padres came from Nyegina. They got Christian names. Our chief Odemba took the children to schools. Nyerere is in the same age set as Ogoche. But Nyerere went to school and he did not get the chance. So as a child learned about the old things, not in schools. This was my education when I couldn’t go to school. Like Zedekia is doing now to learn about the past. What does history do for you? It is our desturi, our inheritance. Do you use history to solve particular problems? This is our desturi to do this. Consult the wazee. What is an example? When there was a disease or an epidemic then they would come to ask the wazee what to do. Maybe small pox or polio or something else. Then they will be given advice to go find the medicines, the dawa to solve the problem. Dawa ya nchi. There is only one person who has the medicine of the land, dawa ya nchi. That is the one who brought us here with medicines, Kagose. Must come from his line. Kagose gave the medicines to Odemba but who is it after that? Who has inherited it? What is destroying the country is money – pesa. It has become like a dini. Even a church. Everyone wants money. Some of the sons of Odemba do medicine for money. So they don’t stay here in Buturi but go to other places. Make dawa. How will the things of the past help us today? The things of the past. Today things are mixed up. Don’t respect old men now. The problem is kuzaa. Girls go without bridewealth. But you will not get it these days (pregnant young girl in the kitchen laughs and chides him). Young men go out on their own and do not take care of elders. Wars in the past. The white people kept people from fighting anymore, stopped it. Bwana Obelo stopped them. But they put in chiefs then religion came. Siso says but why did they fight? Before the wazungu came because when there was famine they would see that other people had millet and would go an steal it from them. If they had cattle and you didn’t they would go and take it. They had shields and spears/. They went to steal cattle. No peacemaking. Only a few people here at the time. The Zanaki were here first. They lost the wars and left. Also the Kuria, Simbiti and Irienyi lost. Boundaries were made and the wazungu put them in. then we threw out the ones who lost the wars and they left. He then turns to me and asks me to call England and get their pensions for soldiers. Siso takes him through a geneology of one side, Kegina, son of Mlowa. Is written on the paper notes. One leader of a clan was adopted in war, captive. Each one a few wives. The one who was adopted, Malasa became a large clan. Leadership – chiefs were bad. People still believed in Kagose and his medicines. The wazungu came and they said that no more wars. Kagose put his son as chief, Ogo. He was not a good man, he did not follow his father. He hit people. He followed the tabia of the Germans. After him was Lanya as chief. He was a doctor but did not know Swahili. He did not hit the people but went back to the ways of his fathers. Example – he talked to people. Lanya was when the English were here. They taught people and we sat in the baraza to counsel. Still tribal conflict? No so much less because there is law now. Other problems? Government does not give the soldiers their pension. Government does not carry through on their promises. Told they would be paid but have not been. TANU? Married and had 4 wives. Balozi here for 20 years. Then Uhuru came. Was in the cheo of Usuluhishi. Then as Jadi ya Kimila. Go after thieves and those that break the law. 3 years in that. 3 years in next. Black tail that he carries is to signify that he is an mzee. A big goat is slaughtered and the skin used to make a robe. A cow is killed for meat to feed all the neighbors. Lots of beer. Buturi is made up of 1) Oliyo 2) Makongoro 3) Rabuor Counselors from each section to work with Odemba. Advisors. Don’t know how to read so couldn’t read the book of history. It would be good because everyone wants to learn it but don’t do it. They say they will come but don’t. Son made a tape of his words. Luo and Bantu people? Only the serekali makes peaces between them. Children learn in school, they marry each others. They are close them. No wealth now. No bridewealth for the father. Daughters go freely. He asks me about what I am going, helping Siso to do this work. This book will have a big voice. Others know this information even more than I do. …

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